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  • Ep5_Part2_Adult friendships

    Susan: [00:00:00]

    Susan: Okay. We’re back with model minority moms for part two of adult friendships, where we follow up on some of the questions that we were talking about, but also just talk about something you’re super awkward, which is the time we broke up twice and the choices that we had to face, And figuring out if this was worth it, to have hard conversations and salvage our friendships, Kate. Do you want to give her a rundown of like what happened?

    Kate: Oh, no. So much pressure. Okay. You mean the first time? The first time. So we

    Susan: broke up.

    Kate: Yeah. The first time, right? Yeah. Yeah. It’s the airport incident.This was sometime in October, whatever I was going on a weekend to San Francisco, to [00:01:00] like just hang out with a bunch of girlfriends without my kid and my husband and my flight was late.

    Kate: I kind of stressed. I had a really shitty week, uh, in general. I was just like, it’s been a very stressful pregnancy for me, but I feel like a complaint so much. I kind of don’t want to complain too much. In retrospect, I probably should have just canceled our call. Right. Cause we have a standing call every week, not the recording, but just to kind of discuss like what needs to be done.

    Kate: So I’m like, literally I step off the plane, it’s hot, I’m wearing the wrong clothes. And then I find out that an Uber from the airport to San Francisco is like $120.And I was like, I can’t do that. It’s too expensive. Asian itself is like $10 to ride the Bart. Also bad idea if you’re going to be talking, you know, like a work phone call.

    Kate: So I’m like hustling. So we have this phone call and then, you know, we talk about like what we should do, like a bunch of stuff that we were supposed to do. and then. I’m like, can’t hear things half the time, but I’m like, oh, and then I hear things I’m like, that sounds weird.

    Kate: But so I’m like saying stuff, but like kind of annoyed too, because I’m like in the BART I can’t really hear anything [00:02:00] again. Probably should have stopped the call. Then the long story short I’ll let Susan and Jeanette say like what they thought I said, but I was just like, after, I mean, I think I could tell that it was like, kind of get things are getting a little, like.

    Kate: Awkward. Cause I was saying stuff, but then I was like, wait, I don’t know if they mean that, but then maybe I was wrong. Anyway, the whole thing was like not great. Right. And then in the Bart where I got cut off, like two, three times, afterwards is the weekend. Then I get a text. I don’t remember who texted me first.

    Kate: So I think it was. Yeah, Susan texted me. She’s like, Hey, what’s up? Like, I’m leaving for Texas on Tuesday. You want to get together? And I was like, oh, I’m not back until Monday. And then I get a text from Jeanette, like soon thereafter. It was like, Hey, do you have time for call? And I was like, Hmm, this is interesting.

    Kate: What a coincidence. I get texts from them. I was like, must be related to the call that I was just trying to think, what should I say? I was mean, I was like, okay. So I’m sure it’s something related to call. So then, and I’ll handle. Mike over to Janette or Susan. So Jeanette and I ended up scheduling a call for the next week, right? Yes.

    Susan: Yeah. You talk with Jeanette first? Yes,

    Kate: I did talk to Jeanette first, which I’m kind of glad I [00:03:00] did. Well, I guess it doesn’t really matter, but yes, I’m glad I talked to Jeanette first. And do you want me to continue or. Yeah. Should I turn,

    Susan: what was it like for you? Like, well,

    Kate: I knew I was like, okay, clearly it’s something about like last Friday’s call.

    Kate: Cause I was like, oh, was I like really bitchy or something? okay, then that day I called net, And then, you know, it was really interesting I think Jeanette and I have very different personalities in case people again, haven’t realized.

    Kate: Um, and I get like, so I think for me, I’m the kind of person where. If you tell me, I was like, shitty, I might bite your head off at first. But like, eventually I realized that I’m wrong, but I have, like, my first instinct is to like, be really upset. Right. And I think Jeanette is sort of the opposite because of, you know, we talked about she’s shared before where, well, Jen, I don’t wanna say too much, but you can elaborate on it where just because of her family background and so forth, React very well when people get really emotional.

    Kate: Right. So first, and it was like, well, you know, I felt like last Friday, and then she was very calmly bringing up a few points where she felt like

    Susan: she had bullet points.

    Kate: Yes. And it was actually good. I know it sounds weird, but it was actually good because it felt And she literally like reading the [00:04:00] five paragraph essay. And then I was like, I’m feeling very bad. I feel really horrible kind of thing. I was like, Jeanette, you’re not very sympathetic, blah, blah, blah. you know, my emotional reactions, but was really interesting as at least my perspective.

    Kate: And you’ll hear it from Jeanette is that, you know, as we were talking through various points, I’ll let Janette bring up the sensitive points that cause I feel like she should say it, but that she didn’t feel comfortable with from the conversation. I like in my classic fashion, I like calm down. I thought about it and I was like, you know, actually she’s right.

    Kate: And it actually got me thinking about how the things that she brought up were related to things that I had been feeling in general. were a buildup of ways that I did did things at work or things. I was actually frustrated with not related to the podcast, I didn’t really share them with you guys.

    Kate: And I was just kind of like dealing with them on my own. And then they just kind of manifested because you know, when things are stressful or, it was just like, not very pleasant. Right. And so in the end, actually I felt that it was really good that Jeanette was as calm as she was, because I feel [00:05:00] like if I had someone who was like me and brought it up, it would have felt.

    Kate: Much more personal. I mean, it’s very personal, but what I mean is that like Jeanette made it the least personal, you can make something that was very personal. Does that make sense? Because it’s very hard when you’re saying, Hey, someone who’s both a friend and also collaborative that you didn’t like something they did personally, where you felt that they didn’t treat you well in a certain way. It’s very hard to say things in a way that doesn’t I don’t know how to say it’s so personal, but Jeanette didn’t make it sound so personal in the way he didn’t feel it. Like you didn’t exactly, because it could easily be, you know, like, well, you, this, you that, you know, but I think Jeanette must’ve been really good with therapy and process a lot of things.

    Kate: Cause she didn’t, you know, the thing you’re supposed to say is like, well, I felt this way. So it’s more understanding how Jeanette felt versus. You know, me feeling shitty that, you know, her saying, oh, you this, you, that you, that. So I actually felt like that was a really good case in which the strategy like really actually works.

     And obviously by the end of the call, I had like calmed down. I realized all of these things and it was just really interesting because I feel like [00:06:00] that was probably the first time in my life where I had a real conversation with them. Who’s a friend who felt like I was not nice about certain things, very specifically said, Hey, this is how I feel, but didn’t do it in a way that was like, mean or passive aggressive or like super personal attack, you know, like in an attack kind of way.

    Kate: And like we said, yes, we didn’t just kind of like melt away. Right. Cause I think easily and I probably would have done this. Definitely. Um, and I told you that in the end, I was like, I don’t know if I would have been able to. Do that, because I think it takes a lot of courage to talk to someone and say, Hey, you know, I feel this way, but in a non-confrontational way, like, I think it’s incredibly hard, right?

    Kate: The easiest way is kind of like to dump somebody or to just kind of like melt away. Like we were talking about yesterday with friendships.

    Susan: Jeanette, like, what was that? I want to understand your idea, like what was going on for you, where you were like, should I give Kate the feedback or not? Like, should we just like, kind of break up and dissolve this podcast, which we’re all [00:07:00] doing as volunteers essentially, or not like what, what was in it for you where you were like, actually I’m going to do the hard thing and have this conversation with her. cause it’s easy for everyone just. Fizzle away as adults.

    Jeanette: I mean, I think because we have the podcast and it seems to have an audience and it feels like it’s becoming more, something more solid. It would have been harder for me to just. Melt away. Right? Like, I mean, people would have asked, like, what happened to the podcast? and the other thing is, I really liked doing it. I mean, I think you guys like doing it too. And so, it felt like it would have been, that’s like an additional loss, right. Just to let it kind of slip away. So, Yeah, I thinkeven though I was planning to have this conversation with Kate in my mind, I think I had already thought that maybe it wasn’t gonna work out and I think that’s something like I’m learning too, because, These conversations are just difficult to have.

    Susan: And when I have had them before, like mostly within my family, they just almost never go well, or they [00:08:00] almost never go anywhere or produce any results. and I think Susan, like you were actually encouraging me to talk to Kate, which I appreciated. Right. But like even as I was preparing to do it. I kind of felt like, okay, like, we’ll have this conversation, but I think half of me felt like it was almost like a checkbox, you know, to say, like, I did that, checkbox so that you would feel an integrity about it later. Like I did everything I could, but really like, you’re like, I didn’t really want to do this.

    Jeanette: No, let, not like everything I could, but like, I didn’t just fade out. I atleast expressed why I was, you know, if, the project was going to be over, like why I was leaving. Right. actually felt really pleasantly surprised by the whole conversation. I mean, I also felt that the conversation was really good and productive and, K, like you said, like the beginning part felt a little rough.

     I think you said something like I was coming across as very hyper rational and cold, which I probably was, that’s also, I think a coping mechanism, like I just, developed in response to hyper [00:09:00] emotional people in my family. um, I’m not saying that that’s like good or bad, but that’s just to explain why, but I think after we got through that part, it actually was a really good discussion and I felt heard, and I felt like we were able to talk through things and, make progress.

    Jeanette: So I was really pleasantly surprised. Like I was happy, that we had had that conversation.

    Susan: Jeanette, what’s your formula for delivering feedback to someone. So they don’t feel attacked because, it landed with K

    Kate: oh no. So the funny thing is that initially my initial criticism of you is actually also what made it possible for us to continue the conversation. If that makes sense. Like, I think if you hadn’t been the more like rational, calm approach, I think things could have escalated and gotten worse. So that’s kind of interesting. Right. But we had to get over that first.

    Jeanette: Yeah. I think essentially, I didn’t really like the way we were interacting.

    Jeanette: And at this point It’s more of a passion project for all of us. And I kind of was feeling like, Hmm, I don’t really want to keep on doing it if this is going to be our dynamic. and so I was [00:10:00] focusing more around. This is what I’m considering doing. And this is why, because this is how I’m feeling. This is like my experience of it. yeah, and then I had these like little bullet points of like, basically when you did X, I felt Y kind of things. which psychologist called the situation -behavior impact model.

    so yeah, I feel like I kind of have two modes. I’m either in that like hyper rational mode or I’m just like losing my shit mode, but the losing my shit mode has gone away more and it really only ever appears with Jake, I would say when I’m really, really mad at. but like everywhere else, I’m kind of in that hyper rational mode, which I still don’t know if it’s the best, but it’s probably better than me, like, you know, losing it.

     which is my other mode. I was happy that we had that conversation. Um, but I actually don’t know anything about like what you and Susan talked about and how that conversation went.

    Susan: Oh, yeah. How did it, yeah. What’s your really

    Kate: different, right? Well, it’s like a really different vibe obviously.

    Kate: Cause Susan is yet another different person. And also just the background is that Susan, um, [00:11:00] probably knows me a little, has had more interactions with me cause I moved here. Earlier than Jeanette. Right. And so I think the reason why Susan, you told Janette to give me a chance was because you were like, you know, Kate and I have had some like disagreements in the past, but we’ve always talked it through. So kind of give her a chance. So the background with that is really important because Susan, I think you’re a very intuitive person and you also very generous person, and also very straightforward person. Right. But like, you kind of, want to give the benefit of the doubt. And also you’d known me for a while and I thought I was like, oh, maybe Janette told too. Then we had the conversation and we hashed out a bunch of stuff. So, you know, approaching the conversation, with Susan, it was just a different vibe because I think Susan is very straightforward and I guess maybe your tone is like less clinical than Jeanette’s, but you’re also not, it’s not like an attack either.

    Kate: I don’t know how to say it. The premise is similar, I think to Janette’s where you, it wasn’t about like you having all these grievances and you want it to make me feel bad. and I think this probably has to do with you having gone through a lot of workshops and personal growth and you know, a lot of the stuff, where you were able to be like, Hey, I knew what you were feeling, you left

    Susan: that [00:12:00] I was out,

    Kate: yeah, but like Susan’s pissed. Isn’t like screaming at you and be like, Whatever. But she doesn’t have to be yelling at you. I mean, so you don’t have to be yelling at somebody to know that you’re pissed because if Susan says I’m pissed, she’s pissed because she only says that when she’s pissed. Okay. Susan’s really pissed. But I think for me, just the background is I’m used to when somebody’s mad and like in the family environment, you know, and I think this is probably very common with like a lot of Asian families, you just get yelled at, right?

    Kate: Like if somebody is unhappy with you, And then the coping mechanism is you either stand there and you take it or you yell back neither of which is like, I think particularly healthy. And so I feel like that’s how I grew up. And so I’m either always bracing for if there’s somebody who’s like, Hey, you know, I have an issue with you either.

    Kate: I’m being braced for like being yelled at, and then taking it, which is how it was with like my parents. If I got yelled at, by my parents or, you know, as I grew older than I would yell back at them, do not recommend this approach is not very good. So it was just really interesting because neither Jeanette nor Susan yelled at me, but they were both like made their displeasure known in their own waysbut I would say I felt the same in that. I felt like I see where you’re coming from. And [00:13:00] I actually appreciated that honesty that came without the. directed emotion, you know? that’s definitely how I felt. And I actually also thought that it was interesting is that even though the three of us are very, very different, the way that the communication works out,I think it had a really pleasant result because we were able to kind of like complement each other’s styles, if that makes sense.

     yeah, so I, I came away also just really appreciating that conversation.

    Susan: Yeah, it’s an interesting thing. Like if someone’s willing to give you feedback or have a hard conversation, it’s because they care about the relationship enough to figure out how to salvage it. Um, when, like, whenever someone gives me a cryptic message, like, Hey, we need to talk.

    Susan: I freak out. Like, I’m like, oh my God, I’m in trouble. Like, I think the worst, I don’t know, like my mind starts spinning and I am so scared. So I think you took it really well where you’re just like, okay, like what time? And I’m like, wow, that [00:14:00] was a lot easier than I thought.

    and just full transparency, mean Jeanette, we had discussed the bullet points together. Okay. We had just been like, Hey, what’s going on? Like what has been frustrating what are we asking for that’s different? So me and Janette did have a conversation in an advance, and it sounded like you, two had talked about all those points, so I’m not going to rehash each of the points, like my whole approach.

    Susan: You’re in or you out, you know, like, do you want to be part of this group? And if so, like, this is how we want to work. And are you cool with that? I guess you’re going to call it a heart to heart conversation of just give it to me straight, you know, like let’s just remove all bullshit and let’s just have a conversation.

    Susan: Like where’s your heart. because I don’t think like at our age, in our late thirties, it’s like, why are we going to do stuff that we kind of want to do? We only want to do stuff because it matters to us because time is so limited. And so my whole objective was just be real with me, just tell me where you’re at and I’m gonna tell you where I’m at and we’re going to see if this matches or not.

     and that’s what we did.

    Susan, what was that matrix that you showed in our conversation.

    Susan: Oh, Johari [00:15:00] window. Yeah,

    Kate: yeah, yeah. Cool.

    Jeanette: What is that?

     I learned it at one of my leadership development things. So Johari’s window is when people give you feedback about stuff, it’s expanding your Johari’s window. It’s a two by two matrix. So it’s what you know about yourself and what others know about you. So for y’all. You would know that I’m Vietnamese American. I know I’m getting these American, you guys know I’m Vietnamese American there’s stuff that I know about me that you don’t know about me. There’s stuff that, you know about me that I don’t know about me. There’s stuff that you don’t know about me. And I don’t know about me. it’s matrix of like, what do I know? And what do you know? And by receiving feedback from other people, Done, hopefully in a kind considerate, constructive way. You can start to expand your window of what you know about yourself and the more you know about yourself, the more you can be your best self.

    Susan: So, I hope I soften the blow with you, Kate, by being like, Hey, this was a great, when we’re doing our wrap-up with the convo, we were like, I was like, yeah, this is expanding your, Johari’s window about how your behavior impacts others. You can be [00:16:00] more effective in like, like we all want to be in connection with each other, right?

    Susan: Like we want to celebrate each other be in a positive place. And when people give me feedback that what I do, makes them feel bad or didn’t have the intended impact that I, I wanted. That’s good information for me to know.sometimes I don’t take it very well, but over time, my awareness of it, apparently I have a tone in my.

    Susan: That’s pretty condescending. And, uh, I got that feedback like maybe like 10 years ago. I was like, I don’t do that. And over time, like sometimes. I’ll just catch myself in the moment and I’ll be like, I think that’s what they’re talking about. And that’s great. because I have some awareness around it, it’s just these little moments where I can just like kind of shift a little bit and I already said the thing and it was maybe offensive to someone, but at least now I’m like kind of more aware of like, exactly what that looks like.

    Kate: Yeah. I’m curious though, is that, Somebody told you this 10 years ago, and I’m sure all of us have gotten, I don’t know, hopefully some sort of feedback, but I find that, you know, with some people they don’t have those moments where they realize, they don’t change or they react [00:17:00] in a way that is more like denial.

    I was just curious with both of you, what do you think has made you more open to feedback or to, listening to things that you maybe didn’t really want to listen to before, because I feel like, you know, when I was a lot younger, th I just feel like in general criticism is hard to take.

    Kate: Right. mean criticism. it’s hard. So what has changed over the years?

    Susan: Do you know that, that idea that you only remember, like the bad stuff and not the good stuff?

    Jeanette: In feedback, you mean? Yeah,

    Susan: like, that’s a hundred percent me. it’s very hard for me to remember the good stuff. And I think on the ego level, it’s just like reinforcing drama I’m not enough and that I’m just like a fuck up, you know?

     and so only really listening to the negative stuff. I mean, that’s what I call it. I call it negative feedback as if this is like a strike against who I am instead of like, oh, this is something that I can be more aware of. and I think some of my tendencies. probably come from a really deep, I’ll tell you what they are.

    he used to do this during job interviews. It’d be like, tell me about your weaknesses. Oh, I was like, oh, [00:18:00] happy too. I was like, I have a tendency to steamroll people and move very quickly because I want to get things to done and then they were like, oh, and then I see them taking notes. And I was like, oh, wrong answer.

     anyways, I have this tendency where my mind is like moving really quickly and I can see it. And then I’m like, okay, we’re going to just go there really quickly. And, and I don’t bring people along it’s bit me in the butt sometimes. and I think sometimes I did that because of this deep insecurity to prove that I am smart and competent, like someone you want to pick on your kickball team, you know, and I think that comes from, uh, an insecure place clearly. the more I get older, the more I’m getting more comfortable in myself. In terms of thinking, I actually don’t need to prove anything to people.

    Susan: When I get really anxious in a situation, I will do like little things to prove that I am like whether that’s credentialing or like. Doing something like kind of obnoxious, but it’s because I’m like really scared and I’ll do that. But when I’mdoing my meditation and working out and like really being [00:19:00] clear that I’m on my path, irrespective of everyone, else’s, I’m not competing with anybody when I’m in a truly good place where I’m not looking outside and comparing, I don’t need to do all those things that piss people off that make other people feel insecure. hopefully that answers your question, kate I feel like there has been some progress into like growing into my own as I get older, but it’s still a journey.

    Jeanette: I don’t know if I’m particularly good at receiving feedback or like better at it than anybody else. I think it’s hard to receive feedback.

    Jeanette: It’s people just naturally don’t want to change. Especially with, kind of, feel more personal, right. even if it’s not delivered in a personal way, if it kind of touches on closer to like who you feel like you are. I think that’s always difficult to hear. I think that actually a part of had to do with my job. you know, I, I was at McKinsey for a number of years and uh, it’s like a management consulting firm. I’m sure many of our listeners. heard about, you know, or know about McKinsey. but they have a really big feedback culture and you know, like every project, at least every two weeks, you’re sitting down with your manager and getting feedback and [00:20:00] exchanging feedback.

    you know, I do think, Nope, no, organization’s perfect. McKenzie’s not perfect either. But I do think this is like one thing that they do a lot better than any other organization I’ve been part of, which is they are very serious about. Sharing feedback in all directions and kind of making it, a tool for improvement rather than, like strictly only a tool for assessing and evaluating people and kind of judging them.

     that did have an influence on me where I probably got more used to receiving and giving feedback because it just became such a part of, you know, how I worked. but yeah, I feel like it’s still hard. It’s not like it’s, I really look forward to it or I, um, I really enjoy it. The other thing I wanted to talk about is, you know, I felt like, Hey, when you were talking about the whole experience, like you correct me, if I’m wrong, I’m just looking over the video. It seemed like you felt some emotion right around it. And it’s like, even after it happened where like talking about it, there’s still like emotion there.

     I wanted to hear a little bit about that and then also just. You know, maybe that’s why we, it’s [00:21:00] hard for us to have these conversations. I’d love to like, hear about past relationships, where there was conflict and like how you guys dealt with it. like, do you guys have like a framework or like a set of tools for how you deal with conflicts and relationships?

    Kate: Yeah, no. I mean, definitely it’s very an emotional thing because Well, I think on a couple of levels, right. On one hand, um, I’d said things that were very hurtful to people that I like. and also another emotional level is that, I think just realizing, that I was also actually touched by how the conversations went. Because again, I don’t think I’ve really had these kinds of conversations as, an adult, That has had this kind of conclusion. you know, Jeanette, you were saying like when you’ve had these conversations with, usually with family, no one wants to change. And the result is kind of like usually blocked. You know, certainly in our, my family, we don’t, you know, we don’t really have these conversations. And then I guess with your spouse is also a little different because. anyway, it’s not exactly. It’s not like, you know, if my husband sat there and was like giving me this, like whatever point feedback, I’d be like, fuck you, [00:22:00] I need a hug or something.

    and so, yeah, I think it was just also part of that emotion is realizing, wow, like this is a milestone, I dunno, Some people are able to reach it when they’re much younger, you know, or like are more, I don’t know, emotionally well-adjusted. and also, I just think it’s just like a realization that all three of us had to overcome a lot of, things in our childhood and our relationships and dynamics with our families that have made us instinctively be a certain way.

    Kate: And we’ve had to fight to overcome that whether it’s through therapy or practice of life,spirituality, whatever else, but we kind of make. the fact that we’re still together and we were able to talk things through productively you guys still get to have a podcast to listen to, is that, you know, we’re able to kind of progress.

    I mean, at the time not saying I realized all of those things, but I think the emotional reaction, and then also just talking about it again. it’s huge and it’s very hopeful. I’m not usually like this kind of a smarmy person, but, but it does, it’s like hopeful, right? That’s like all the work for

    Jeanette: me. Okay.

    Susan: Okay. Never heard of that word

    Kate: before, like [00:23:00] Otter, Harry Potter, Harry Potter. Oh, I was like British, British. Oh, you’re into Harry Potter. It’s not a very high end word. but yeah,a lot of things that we’ve talked about in our past podcasts of our struggles and I was like, oh, this is like real life proof that we can make things work out.

    Kate: Despite having to overcome a lot of these psychological, emotional and other barriers right. In our lives.

    Susan: I got to say it was, really scary. Cause I was like, is it worth it? Cause I, I didn’t know how you were going to react, but I think we all had something that we were fighting for, which is like recording these podcasts are super fun. And also the feedback that we get from listeners and the benefit it was harder to bail, Cause there was something at stake that was like really special by us coming in.

    Kate: Also, you know, that I listened. I told you guys that I listened to every single one of our episodes, like after they get released, because I feel like I learn a lot just from re listening.

    Kate: So I almost feel like recording the episodes is a process. And then when I listened to the product, I actually learn a lot of things during that myself. Not because I like to hear my own voice. and I do think that awareness, has [00:24:00] helped me grow a lot too. And not just the recording itself, but listening to us talk and I’ll say, oh, interesting.

    Kate: I said that and wonder why. Oh, okay. Janette has a really good point there. So it’s weird. Like I learn I’m learning from our own podcasts, both in the recording. I mean, that’s the fun part, but then also after it was done, I listened to it. I learned some more. So I think that’s also for me when I think about it, like a big part of

    Susan: the growth, your value add.

    Susan: Yeah. Yeah.

    Jeanette: I had just thought about this thing. A little bit of a tangent, but I mean, I think there’s a lot, you can learn about yourself by just having a more objective or like distance look at yourself. when I was working at McKinsey, like I had a really difficult partner, um, that I was working with and she actually made me cry andI was having a really hard time. And, I was working with a coach. That they had available. And should I was telling her about this situation that I was in the, how hard I felt it was. And she, um, had me record myself having an imaginary conversation with this partner and then telling her, like [00:25:00] my experience in the project.

    Jeanette: And then she had me watch it and then she was like, well, what do you think she thinks my answer was like, she doesn’t care. But, even though it was a hard answer, it was like a realization that I had playing out, like watching myself, playing out that scenario, you know what I mean?

     so I think that you don’t, always need, like,somebody else to tell you or point you in a direction. Right. Sometimes it’s like, just about. Oh, where it is. Right. And you can get more awareness by having a more objective look or a more distance. Look at yourself.

    Susan: My confession is I haven’t listened to our podcast yet at all. No.

    Jeanette: Oh my goodness. I don’t listen to every episode, but I do listen to a good chunk of them. maybe I should, you should listen to it. They’re fun and funny. Oh,

    Susan: good God. Okay. can we replicate this in other areas of our lives of like this, like, I mean, I haven’t read crucial conversations, but I’m sure this is what it’s all about. this was like a really hard thing that we did. Can you do it in other parts in your [00:26:00] life or is it kind of like, Give me five years.

    Jeanette: I may, I think it depends on the relationship, I think relationships within my own family, they’re going to be the hardest because of a lot of things.

    Jeanette: Power dynamics and history and you know, those like roots and scars, whichever analogy you wanna use, like they just run so deep and they’re so tangled that it’s very painful to try to, straighten them out. you know, like we all just talked about, it takes emotional energy to go through these conversations and the outcome is somewhat uncertain.

    Jeanette: Right. So I think there’s like a real rational reason why a lot of people just kind of avoid them because you don’t really know what’s going to happen if it’s going to have any benefit. They take emotional energy. and so, I don’t know, sadly it’s like, you kind of have to decide like which relationships are worth fighting for.

     which relationships are worth that emotional energy of saying like, Hey, when you did this, I didn’t like that. let’s talk through it and see if we could get to a better place. It’s also possible [00:27:00] that you guys end up in a worst place and you, your friend is like, I hate that you said that, like, I don’t want to talk anymore. Yeah.

    Susan: When I got dumped by two girls in the last, I don’t know, four years, three or four years, I fought for those relationships. When I saw that one kind of tried to fizzle away and like one was like an email break up with me. And I fought for both of them because I cared about these people and we had so many great times together, but the result is like, they didn’t want to be friends with me, Sometimes it’s like, when it’s not working out, it’s like, what are you going to do? Have an in-person conversation, email them about it, or just like, do nothing, these are the options that we’re faced with all the time, which is like, how important is it?

    Susan: What are we really gonna do? You know? AndJanette, you said this word, you were like, if that relationship is valuable to you or important to you, like. is that easy for you to decide which relationships you let go and which ones you fight for and how are you going to fight for it?

     or like the ones that are like important enough, but you just don’t say anything and you just like maintain.

     I mean, I think that kind of in your last bucket of options is I consider that like lowering your [00:28:00] expectation. you hope that there’s relationship could be X, but it’s like only Y. And so are you going to have that difficult conversation to see if you could get it to X? Or are you just going to accept that it’s Y and it’s not going to change. Really willing to take the risk or the effort to try to get to the, better place. So I think that the third option, right.

    Jeanette: Which is like fizzle out or like, you know, a board basically, adjust your expectations, like, you know, just accept the good and then just accept the bad without trying to change things. And the last is, try to better what’s not great about it. and I think it’s not always that straightforward, on how to manage between those three options.

    Jeanette: Like, I mean, it also has to be somewhat reciprocal, right? It’s not all like in your court. I’ve had not that many, but like I’m thinking of one in particular where, uh, we were pretty good friends and then, she just kind of faded out. I had emailed her to try to get together many times and I was just getting a lot of like [00:29:00] cancellations, really late replies.

    Jeanette: And after a couple years,You know, she has, other things going on, or maybe this is just not important to her anymore, but can’t really continue to put in the effort to try to maintain this relationship. Right. So it, it takes two,

    Susan: it takes two to tango.

    Susan: Everybody. How about you?

    Kate: I think about, you know, there’s a friendship I’m thinking about. Um, I don’t know if she’ll ever listen to her podcast, but, I alluded to it in the first episode, where I, I really wanted to be friends with this person and we were friends, but we kind of had like up and down and up and down. Right. Um, over the last many years. And I think one of the things I learned as I got older sort of echoes what Janette said is that, you know, At some point, you kind of have to realize, that you can’t force certain things. Um, just by sheer, you know, we’ll like, I didn’t, I didn’t like someone not liking me.

    Kate: So I was like, oh, I really want to be friends with this person. And I kind of was trying to force the friendship along beyond maybe a natural sort of its natural shape. Right. And it caused me [00:30:00] a lot of. Pain to a certain extent, right? Because it wasn’t natural. And then at some point finally, like several years ago, I just realized, I was like, I can let this go. And it’s not a judgment on this person. Like she’s not a good person or something, or this is not a judgment on me. It’s just two people sometimes just aren’t, you know, Be friends. and so, but I think that would have been very hard for me to accept, uh, when I was younger, because I was more like, oh, I like this person.

    Kate: I want to be friends with this person. I would almost see it as like really annoying if somehow I couldn’t make that happen, Uh, and I also think I had a lot more of a craving, a desire to be accepted, so to speak. Like I thought, well, if I can’t be friends with this person, it must mean there’s something wrong with me.

    Kate: Kind of like what you’re saying earlier. Right, Susan. and I think that’s the thing, right? It’s I think in life it’s much easier to rationalize or justify, um, the loss of a friendship or the loss of a breakup. I villifying the other person like, oh, well, you know, that person sucked or that person wasn’t good. and especially, I think it happens a lot with, breakups, romantic [00:31:00] breakups. But I actually realized some point in my twenties. I didn’t, I didn’t like the idea of Eva. If I broke up with someone or if a friend of mine broke up with someone, I didn’t like the shit talk because I had enough experience.

    Yes, there’s true. Like negative treatment by one person or the other, right. there are a lot of shades of gray. There’s a lot of complexity. People are messed up on both sides and things happen because of immaturity because of circumstances and all of these things. it doesn’t make someone like a bad person, uh, if you are not compatible with them. Right. But I think our human ego is such that it, we feel better about ourselves. If we can somehow justify that the other person is like inferior in some way. And it took me a while, like almost 30 to kind of realize that.

    Kate: Sorry, I feel like maybe it’s some people realize it earlier. That’s so awesome. But I, I just feel like human ego is so strong, and especially actually to what Susan said, that the more insecure you feel about yourself, I feel like the more that ego asserts it. Right. Like, I definitely felt that too.

    Kate: It was directly correlated to [00:32:00] my insecurity. Um, and I’m not saying now I’m not insecure. I definitely still have a lot of insecurities, but I, I, I’m a lot more aware of them. And so therefore I can better manage the circumstances. and I hopefully like. In general pass, less judgment on people. I mean, I’m a super judgy person. So my first instinct is to like be judgy, but over time I can kind of judge my own judgment. If that makes sense. I’ve learned so meta, right? Like I can judge that I’ve been really judgy and I sometimes will continue saying the judgy things, but I know that I’m being really judgy and I’ll be pretty open about that.

     you know, just being aware of my own prejudices. I mean, you could always say, well then maybe the next step is to correct them. I’m like, okay. Okay. I’m working on that. But like that doesn’t come overnight, right? Yeah.

    Susan: Yeah. I was curious Jeanette, about what you’re saying about X or Y of course, this turns into algebra, but like X or Y about like, just changing your expectations about people.

    Susan: And I’m wondering if. Is there like an age cutoff for you where you’re like, if this person’s over 50, I [00:33:00] just changed my expectations about them. Like, I want to let it slide like, whoa, I’m going to think about only the good things, how do you like figure out if you’re going to change your expectations around them versus like, no, that’s not enough value I’m going to do.

    Jeanette: Um, I think, no, I don’t think it’s like strictly age-related because I feel like I apply it to everyone ranging from my three-year-old son to like my 62 year old mother, for my son, obviously he does things that drive me crazy, but I accept that, these are his, like really his mental and physical limitations And I, I just have to accept them. Right. And there’s a lot of good things about our relationship. I guess. I just kind of periodically like reassess, what are my reasonable expectations for relationship?

    Susan: Can we do insight? That’s okay. All right. And we’re going to wrap this episode with our usual inside thoughts. So what was your high school dream car? I’m going to tell you when I was in high school, my sad [00:34:00] dream car was the Toyota echo two door It’s really small. It’sless cool than a current

    Kate: photo. Why? When you’re asking

    Jeanette: that question, I was like, oh my gosh, my I like immediately knew what my answer was going to be. And I was like, oh my gosh, we answer’s going to be so sad. And typically Jeanette. And then you said my answer,

    Susan: why it’s like the gas,

    Kate: gas

    Susan: violation. Was it kind of looked like it kind of slumped forward.

    Susan: Like, it looks like a dolphin and it’s like the most unsexy dream car. Like if you were to have any dream car, but I was hell bent on it. I was like, wow. If only I could have an echo. And like, whenever I drive around and see an echo, I go. Thank you. Like most kids would want, like, I don’t know, a Corvette, a BMW, at least a Honda civic. Do that. Why did you want it? I [00:35:00] think,

    Jeanette: yeah, I think at the time I wasn’t so aware of why I wanted it, but I think now in hindsight, I probably wanted it because it represented self-sufficiency and it felt like the thing. I don’t know, but it represented self-sufficiency that I felt like I didn’t have, and my family didn’t have. Right. And so I felt like, if I could just work to get an echo, then like, I would be mobile by myself, you know? And I wouldn’t have to depend on anybody. I think it represented independence and self-sufficiency for me. Right. That was why. I love that car. I never actually owned an echo, but, um, yeah, that was like my dream car in high school.

    Susan: Oh my God. It’s like so sad.

    Kate: I

    Jeanette: know. It’s so sad. It’s like sad. Funny. I’m like,

    how about you Caitlin? Now?

    Kate: We’re kind of embarrassed to say, because I, mine is not practical. I mean, you had said dream car, so . Yeah, so I wanted a, [00:36:00] an actual really hasn’t changed much in my mind, like, because it’s a dream, right?

    Kate: It’s like an ideal, um, a seafoam green Jaguar coupe, a vintage. And I want it. So the reason why I think I must have watched some Grace Kelly movie or something, and then I’m going to wear these cat eye sunglasses and have, you know, the like silk scarf. And then I’m going to go for a drive on the cliff.

    Kate: Anyway, that was like the whole romantic image that I had. And I guess that whole image hasn’t changed all that much because I would still love a seafoam green Jaguar. I

    Jeanette: do think that the old Jaguars are really pretty like,

    Kate: yeah, the new ones are really frigging ugly. They rebranded, I think the last few years.

    Kate: And I’m like, no, thank

    Susan: you. Okay. So what’s your dream car now? No, but it’s still the same. Okay. That’s yours? What about you Jeanette? You still pining for

    Jeanette: no, I think my I’ve upgraded. My dream car now is a plug-in hybrid Toyota RAV4.

    Susan: Oh, I thought you were gonna go [00:37:00] Prius. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, sometimes I kind of want like a two door Lexis.

    Susan: Like a sports car. Like I just like want to get somewhere quickly. Okay. No, wait. Okay. There’s really quickly. There’s two, like there’s that one. And then also the Fiat, the two-door Fiat, like it’s so small, like looks like a, just like a nicer version of the smart car. I mean, there are very expensive for how small they are.

    Susan: I don’t know, 40 grand or something, but like, like a cream one or something. but I did put on my vision board. Five years ago when I was making a big collage, I was like, you know what, I’m just going to do an, I like cut out a Maserati. I like put it on there because I was just like, money, no thing.

    Susan: You know, like, I mean, I don’t know if I really want one, but there was something around, I made it, and I got there quickly. But, yeah, I don’t know then all this like electric stuff, I’m just like, Hmm. What about one of those Teslas? Where the doors like go,

    Kate: oh yeah, that’s my [00:38:00] mommy dream. That’s my mom dream car.

    Susan: That X. Yeah. But if you’re like in a really tight San Francisco garage, there’s no way you can open the doors.

    Kate: No, if that’s why it’s there. Yeah. The Tesla X ones are great because they go vertically up. Um, I used to think they went like this, you know? Sorry, you guys can’t. It looks like a bird. I thought it would open up like a bird, but no, I watched the YouTube videos and it goes straight up and it’s actually perfect.

    Susan: So pretentious it’s so pretentious, but kind of hot. And with that, we’ll see you next time.