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  • Marvin ep

    Marvin: [00:00:00] So I think what eventually brought me around to it, because when Susan was pursuing her performance career, it was really about , trying to figure out what happened to her mom.

    Marvin: Who is her mom, what’s going on with her family? That was when she was after. And then I realized like, oh, this is , Susan’s life, life work. I’m like, I can’t get in the way of that.

     Welcome To model minority moms, where we talk about the meaning of success in career, family, and life. We are Janette park,

    Kate: Kate

    Kate: Wong

    Susan: And Susan Lu,

    Harvard, classmates, and Asian-American working moms. Who get real about the pressures of fitting in while standing out.

    Susan: Welcome to season three of model minority moms. We have gotten a lot of [00:01:00] great feedback from our users about what they want to hear about and the topic that really rose to the top was you might be model minority moms, but can we hear from the model minority?

    Susan: Dads. And so what we are doing that is very new for season three is we are inviting all the husbands to come speak throughout the season and give their take on parenting. What they think of the podcast. And maybe us women, wives, AKA me can learn something new about our relationships and our family life.

    Susan: So without further ado, I’m super excited to introduce someone that I’ve known for a good nine years. He knows where I sleep at night and he also forces me to go mountaineering. Even though I hate the outdoors, everyone please welcome our first guests to season three, my husband, the one and only Marvin Kim,[00:02:00]

    Marvin: happy to be here.

    Susan: And of course I talked to him all the effing time. So there’s no point in me interviewing him because we’ll get, just get back into the groove. Husband wife and what we usually do. So this episode is actually going to be driven from Kate and Jeanette. So why don’t you teach, take it away.

    Susan: Okay. So

    Kate: first comment about Marvin. It was a joke that I didn’t think you actually existed for the first, like three years after I moved to Seattle because like every time I got together and Susan, even if it was in your apartment, you were never there. And I think the first time I caught a glimpse of you was, oh yeah, Susan, we were doing an exchange in Chinatown.

    Kate: And then Marvin and his mom were at the restaurant. I didn’t even see his face. You were just, this is what it was like, Hey yeah, we’re eating in the special. You want to come? And I was like, oh, I got to go. And then I looked in and I was like, oh, Marvin exists. He’s real.

    Marvin: I remember that encounter or that it wasn’t quite an encounter.

    Kate: Yeah. Not [00:03:00] exactly the encounter, but yes, Marvin is, is real.

    Kate: So can we, can we have a refresher on Marvin Lynn’s background?

    Kate: Cause I know something in the past, like Susan has said he is Korean Canadian, American American, and then Jeanette was confused because she thought that meant he was half Korean, half Canadian. And half a American yeah. But apparently that’s not. So, so Marvin, please, please do the honors of telling us a bit about like where you grew up, what you identify as, and like, you know yeah, yeah.

    Marvin: Yeah. So I was born in the us in Philadelphia and then I think around kindergarten or grade one age, I moved to Canada. Then roughly a year later I moved to Korea. My parents are from Korea, both of them, they both grew up there and I think it was like, they thought this was [00:04:00] like their big returned to Korea.

    Marvin: And then they realized they really don’t enjoy living there. And then, so I think a year later they moved back to Canada to Montreal and then I was. There. I would say I, I would, I tell people I grew up in Canada, so I stayed there until I was in grade seven and then the whole family moved to Hong Kong at that point.

    Marvin: And there was another time, like senior year of high school where my parents thought again, oh, this, this is going to be my sabbatical. And Hong Kong is over. We’re moving back to Canada. My dad’s a professor. And so we moved back to Canada. They realized Marvin is not [00:05:00] enjoying it. Maybe this was the wrong move.

    Marvin: So then. I moved back to Hong Kong to finish my senior year of high school. And yeah, so, so that’s like, that’s like me up through high school and I would identify, I guess I identify as Canadian Asian, although I’ve lived in the U S longer than I lived in Canada. And, but, but I, I feel like I’m not quite, I don’t put myself in the same category as Asian American, because I think I had like this advantage of also living in Hong Kong, like being surrounded by Asian people where I was not the minority, the minority, I think that’s like a slightly different experience that, so I grew up like, [00:06:00] For like a big chunk of high school being like the majority in high school, although we all spoke English.

    Marvin: Cause I went to like an English speaking high school. So yeah, that’s how I grew up.

    Jeanette: So you are in Hong Kong from fro, sorry, which grades? Exactly.

    Marvin: It is grade eight through

    Susan: basically

    Kate: as a teenager, right? Like you spent all your teen years

    Susan: in

    Marvin: Hong Kong. 14 through 18. Yeah. Yeah.

    Jeanette: Got it.

    Kate: I feel like that’s pretty formative for identity. Right? There’s like teenage years.

    Marvin: It was. And I think that’s why maybe I put myself into a different category from Asian-American because I feel like.

    Marvin: For most Asian Americans may be like a common thing, might be you grew up as the minority. And, and I had to like [00:07:00] deal with that in your teenage years and like what that experience is. So I kind of like the opposite experience in a way, and it was great. And I, and I really liked that. So yeah, I guess I had just had happened to have that advantage but by living in Hong Kong.

    Jeanette: And can you tell us a little bit more about your family? So your dad was a professor, I’m assuming, I think you grew up with both of her parents, like siblings.

    Marvin: I, I have two younger brothers. Yeah, my dad’s a professor of accounting. And he probably always wanted me to study economics or something and get a PhD.

    Marvin: But my dad is like a pretty relaxed person, I would say. And doesn’t really impose upon me too much. I would say my mom is more can I say like the typical Asian mom and once like, [00:08:00] like the tiger mom wanted me to play violin.

    Marvin: I, I, I played violin because I had to, I think

    Susan: he was also in his church, his rock band as the drummer

    Marvin: was a drummer in the church band. And my mom actually didn’t work for most of my upbringing. I think like when we were living in Philadelphia, she did work. Like, that was like when I was too young for me to remember.

    Marvin: And that was when my dad was doing his PhD. And I think at that time my mom worked since like kindergarten. I don’t think that’s like too surprising for like my mom’s generation and I never really thought of it as unusual. But yeah. That’s yeah. So I guess, I guess I was [00:09:00] fortunate to have like a mom that was like, always like paying attention to us all the time.

    Susan: It’s a hip mom. Like she made you guys blueberry muffins during December. She’d play Christmas music the whole month. She made Western food for you because that’s what you guys preferred.

    Marvin: Yeah. I guess like, my mom was pretty good at assimilating. I guess you could put it that way. Yeah. Yeah. I, I guess you could say she was hip, but like by one thing maybe that’s telling is, you know, she, she grew up in Korea and she’s like really into all things Japanese.

    Marvin: Like she like Japanese food is like her number one food. But for like her, a lot of Koreans that’s like. You know, people have big feelings or negative feelings. Yeah.

    Jeanette: You’re saying that. And you’re saying that, and I don’t know if he could see, I’m just kind of like [00:10:00] have slight cringe, like, oh, I

    Jeanette: don’t know.

    Susan: Jeanette say,

    Kate: could give, give the context. Some people might not know about that.

    Jeanette: Oh, well, Japan colonized Korea for I don’t know, like I think a few decades or something. And there’s a very it’s a complicated relationship between the two countries because in some ways Japanese culture has really influenced Korea.

    Jeanette: I think a lot of Koreans would say Korean culture has also really influenced Japan, but it’s UN recognized. And I mean, the occupation was pretty brutal. And so I think for a lot of Koreans, even though there’s a lot of Japanese influence in the country there’s mixed feelings about wholeheartedly accepting it because they are the colonial oppressors.

    Jeanette: And so, yeah, I mean, I think that like, it’s, that’s why what’s Marvis describing I have a bit of that reaction, like, [00:11:00] oh, we can’t just wholeheartedly accept the accept, the colonias culture, you know? But yeah, so that’s, that’s that’s a bit of the feeling

    Kate: it’s interesting. Cause I feel like Marvin then you really grew up in a very atypical you’re right.

    Kate: I think like in an environment that was not only atypical for compared to, I think a lot of Asian Americans, but in general, I feel like for Asian. Immigrants anywhere, right? Because you know, you were the U S new in Canada, and then you were in Hong Kong, even though you’re Asian, but you’re not like the local Asian.

    Kate: And then your peer, you know, your family is still celebrated Christmas and like ate blueberry muffins. And then your mom was really into Japanese stuff. And so I just feel like there’s a whole, there’s a lot of really eclectic influences, culturally, both Asian culture and also like Western culture, if I may say in your life.

    Kate: And I guess, how does, how do you feel like that’s really informed who you’ve become as a person? I think the three of us talk a lot about how our cultural backgrounds kind of influenced how, how we approach our own parenting or how we think about our kids’ [00:12:00] identity.

    Kate: So it kind of a big question, but you can kind of tackle it from wherever you wanna, you wanna start.

    Marvin: I guess I, from like that Asian culture kind of perspective, maybe, maybe I feel I kind of balanced about it. I don’t feel that strongly that I wanted, I instill like some form of Asian, this or Korean this in art. Yeah, maybe it’s I don’t, I don’t know where that comes from. Maybe that’s cause I didn’t like really like struggle with it necessarily growing up.

    Marvin: I was like very comfortable or, or I, I, yeah, but like I was saying earlier, I grew up or like my teenagers were in Hong Kong, so I felt very comfortable in like being Asian at that time. So maybe I, don’t not like swinging really [00:13:00] far the other way. And trying to like instill that in my child necessarily like Sue, Susan May be, feels more strongly about that.

    Marvin: Trying to like pass on the Vietnamese heritage. Yeah. And, and we talk about that and like sending kids to language school and stuff like that. And I don’t actually feel that strongly about it. I think like, just thinking of it, I think what influences my parenting style the most is probably something to do with my dad.

    Marvin: And I feel like when I was growing up my dad, I mean, my dad’s an academic, he’s a professor and he’s like very much like in his world and in his thoughts and like growing up. You know, he, he just be up into the late hours, like reading or writing or doing whatever [00:14:00] professors do. And in some way he like, doesn’t pay that much attention to other aspects of his life.

    Marvin: Like he just has like his academic thing and yeah, he doesn’t really have hobbies or anything per se. But I mean he, but he’s, he’s, he’s like a very kind person and yeah, there was nothing like negative there, but, but I think like growing up, like I remember like an uncle of mine came over and he had bought me like a gift and it was like a Swiss army knife.

    Marvin: And he was like, oh, maybe you could use this when you go camping or something. And I thought that was so cool that there was like an adult that like actually pinpointed something that like, I might be interested in. It, it happened to be actually something that I was very [00:15:00] interested in and was like taking interest in that.

    Marvin: And like, for me, like my dad was like, never that so maybe for me, what’s like important as a dad now is just to like, do my best to like, be interested in whatever art is interested in. Like he may, I guess he could be interested in things that like, I have no interest in, but like, I want to like try to like to like be there.

    Marvin: So maybe like, Yeah. That’s like the dad, I hope, hope to be. And that comes from like my, my own experience, like being around my parents.

    Kate: Oh, there’s a lot of, yeah, go ahead Jeanette.

    Jeanette: Oh, no, I was just going to say, I think that’s very sweet actually. It’s the kind of thing I feel like even a decade ago, I just wouldn’t really [00:16:00] put a lot of value on because I just didn’t, it wasn’t really part of my experience with my parents growing up.

    Jeanette: And I think it was like the kind of thing. I never, it never really entered my mind as like, it’s like something that’s really important, but now I, now that I have two kids, I feel like it’s very important, you know?

    Marvin: Like just today Art was taking a bath and, and I was just like trying to watch him and you can like pick up on things like, oh, he’s really into this specific toy now. And you can like easily miss all that. And so I feel like that’ll just continue for the next 20 years where your child could be really into something and you as a parent could just totally miss it.

    Marvin: And I think I definitely experienced that for myself growing up. And even now I feel like the things [00:17:00] that, that I really get excited about. Like maybe my parents am. I like, are not that interested in it. So yeah. That are can like come to me and talk to me about whatever he’s excited about at the time.

    Susan: All I’m thinking right now is Marvin honey. I’m sorry. I don’t want to attempt to summit Mount Rainier for the fourth time. I’m sorry. I’ve disappointed you and not interested in doing crazy shit.

    Kate: That’s funny. You know, something you said earlier, Marvin, about, you know, not necessarily emphatically wanting art or to impart some sort of Asian ness or Asian cultural heritage to art, because you were always immersed in it.

    Kate: And actually that really struck me because what I’ve noticed and I’m in a bunch of like bilingual. Parent slash mostly mom groups, social media groups. What I’ve noticed is [00:18:00] actually the most like the ones who are the most intense about like the Chinese language, like tutoring books are actually not the ones who are like.

    Kate: From China and grew up in China or like me where I’m actually fluent in Mandarin and spent a lot of time working in China. They’re the ones who fucking hated Chinese school growing up, barely speak Mandarin are, or, and, or are illiterate. But now with their kids are just like, they want to like compensate, you know, like, especially if they’re married to a partner that doesn’t speak the language and the grazing, even the parents, the moms.

    Kate: White who speak no Mandarin dude. They’re so intense. So I think there’s something there, Marvin, that’s so interesting because you know, being Asian feels more natural to you, you grew up in a majority and then yeah. It just really, I feel like that makes so much sense. It’s kind of interesting. But then how do you feel about Susan?

    Kate: I guess like, you know, cause Susan obviously had a different, [00:19:00] sorry, Susan, I’m going to have to add you into this. You know, cause she, she obviously has a different approach, right? So like I know this, isn’t talked about a lot in the past about, you know, speaking Vietnamese to art, maybe sending to the Vietnamese immersion school versus one that’s closer.

    Kate: Like how do you, how do you feel about like, Susan’s kind of having a different approach? I’m curious. Cause my husband, I also have kind of different approaches.

    Marvin: I think it makes sense that maybe like the people straight out of China or some other country outside of the U S. Like maybe are more casual about it.

    Marvin: I think like, if you just like immigrated here, let’s say from Korea or China or something, you probably really do want to like, integrate, like you came here. Cause it’s like the promise land or something. And so, so we made it here and you want to integrate and that’s what you’re going to do.

    Marvin: But [00:20:00] like, I guess you didn’t travel halfway across the world just to like

    Marvin: ignore, ignore what’s happening in the U S and just be me Chinese or Korean or Vietnamese. So I feel like that’s like a natural, like reaction if you’re, if you’re like immigrated and then I guess now. We’re all second generation, I guess. So yeah, I guess maybe for Susan, it feels like just like, if she doesn’t pass it on to art, then the Vietnamese heritage could, end and that feels like really sad.

    Marvin: And I think that’s why Susan wants to fight for it. And I think I’m, I think that makes sense. And that’s like perfectly reasonable and I’m not, I’m not necessarily resisting Susan on it. I I’m just [00:21:00] more like being lazy about the logistics of it

    Susan: or out of your day to drive back and forth to that other place.

    Marvin: Right. Like things like that. So yeah, maybe I should just get over my laziness. But, but Resisting her on like some philosophical level is just like being practical, I guess. And then I think, like, I remember my experience when I was in Montreal, we went to Korean school and that was like Saturday or something because Sunday was church.

    Marvin: And then it was basically all the people in Korean church. We’d go to the Korean school on Saturday also. So you saw like the same people and I just remember, like, I would, I would get to hang out with like some good friends of mine, but, but I didn’t feel like it was like a super like educational [00:22:00] experience necessarily.

    Marvin: I don’t feel like my Korean got that much better from, from doing that. So then I’m like a bit hesitant about like, oh, we do. Vietnamese school on Saturday or something. Cause it feels like a lot of effort as a parent, but is it is actually gonna do anything for Art but, but I, I also feel like the whole language thing is kind of innate in each individual.

    Marvin: I feel like someone like Susan really probably enjoys talking to people, loves talking to people and naturally likes language stuff. And I’m, I’m, I’m someone who doesn’t love, like just talking to strangers. So like trying to learn a language is more difficult for me

    Susan: and make new friends. Every time I fly on the air.

    Kate: Oh, my God, I can’t. I hate, I don’t like [00:23:00] talking to people on airplanes. I just like, look at my book, put headphones on. I’m like, I don’t talk to me.

    Susan: No, no. They were like, I’m going to donate to your book tour. Let me sign up your mailing list. We take selfies. Like if you sit next to me on a plane, whereas if you sit next to Marvin on.

    Kate: If we were celebrities, Susan, you’d be so popular. I’d be the one that everybody hates. Marvin would probably feel the same way.

    Jeanette: So I usually start talking to people during the descent, when the pilots I was for descending now, then I will like, like drop my resting bitch face and then just be more open or put down my book or something.

    Jeanette: And then I’m like, oh, , I know I only need to talk to you for 30 minutes. So now it can talk,

    Susan: oh my God, that’s terrible. What if, what if there was your long lost cousin? And you’re like, oh, I’m sorry. Now I have to go get my bags. You later. Oops. Missed opportunity. It’s

    Jeanette: not going to be my last, not my last.

    Jeanette: I don’t have any long lists cause she

    Susan: couldn’t find them on 23 and [00:24:00] me she’s right? No, that’s like a, mostly a white database anyways. No, I

    Kate: have third cousins. I’m 23 and me. Oh

    Susan: yeah. That’s cool. I know. Well, anyway, the net net, Marvin is a 20 out of the 30 scale of being zero to 30 extrovert or zero to 30 introvert.

    Susan: Marvin is a 28 introvert and I am a third one extrovert. So you can deduce who makes airplane, friends and who doesn’t. Hmm.

    Jeanette: Yeah. So question for you, Marvin, like, I picture art kind of in his, and the trajectory you’re imagining in your mind.

    Jeanette: Right. In terms of like his language learning and. What he learns about like Korean culture and Vietnamese culture and American culture. Is there any feeling there, like, is there any sadness or a sense of loss? Because he’s probably going to be less in touch with Korean culture than, than you.

    Jeanette: Right. So do you have any feelings about that?

    Marvin: [00:25:00] Like, I feel not that in touch with Korean culture myself. So I feel like whatever Art is going to get from me is like 5% of what I’ve got. And I’m already probably like 5% of what someone who actually grew up in Korea is, you know, so I feel like it’s not a huge loss. Like

    Marvin: Maybe art will reach an age where he really is curious about Korean culture and he really does want to connect. And like, I can’t like be that person for him and that’ll be a bit disappointing. So, so maybe like his grandma can kind of help them like connect to Korea in that way.

    Marvin: So, so yeah, I, I could, I could see like maybe art might be really interested in that part of his [00:26:00] heritage at some point. And I might have like a tough time, like filling in the gap. Maybe I have to step up at that point and become like, like a new person. And like explore my own Korean ness. But, but yeah, I guess at this point I don’t feel like too sad about it.

    Marvin: And then I’ll just like react as things unfold. Cause, cause I mean he could just be really into the Vietnamese side of things also. Although Korean culture is becoming really big right now, so

    Jeanette: he’ll be like, dad, why didn’t you ever teach me about this stuff? It’s like what all the cool kids do now?

    Marvin: Yeah. Like we have a, I have a nephew who apparently is really into Korean everything now. Like Susan’s brothers, son, Korean hairstyles, Korean music. Yeah, but I like [00:27:00] somehow I’m not like the conduit for that. I’m just not, I’m just not like the authority uncle. Yeah.

    Kate: Marvin, do you do your parents, so arts, paternal grandparents, do they have any thoughts or opinions about the passing down the Korean ness or like the Korean culture to art?

    Kate: Right. Cause you mentioned like, you know, you may not be able to do much, but maybe his grandma could do something. Did they have like strong opinions, you know, about it or that they made known?

    Marvin: There’s like this weird thing. And I can’t identify whether it’s like my parents or whether it’s like Korea ness that that’s like one of the things I have a hard time doing, because I’m not like living in Korean culture is like, they don’t, they’d rather not like inconvenience any anyone.

    Marvin: So

    Marvin: yeah, so like, [00:28:00] yeah, I don’t think like, my parents are trying to , impose very much on me and Susan and on art. And I think it’s just kind of out of courtesy or something, just to not , create more work for us. , like here’s an example. So when we got married, Susan wanted to , do all things Korean in the wedding ceremony.

    Marvin: So like, you know, like what do you guys wear? What, like food should be there. What are the ceremonies like?

    Susan: Well, this has to, because I was also doing Vietnamese things and I didn’t want to start the family dom with. I only do Vietnamese things and where’s the Korean thing. It would be like such an obvious hole that I, I felt like I would already be docked a point as a daughter-in-law.

    Susan: Right.

    Marvin: Yeah. I mean, that makes sense. And then like, my mom’s reaction was like, [00:29:00] oh, no one in Korea does that stuff anymore anyways. And we wouldn’t know where to find people to like, get that food or get that clothing or, or whatever. So don’t worry about it. That was kind of like her reactions. So it was like the opposite of imposing, like that culture on us.

    Marvin: And then like another, like story comes to mind, like a childhood best friend of mine who is Korean. And like my parents, my parents and their parents, like know each other from back in Montreal. I talking to my mom about, are we going to invite like Simon’s parents or not? And my mom was like, well, if you like invite them, then they feel like obligated to come.

    Marvin: And they might not decline when they, they don’t really actually want to come. So they were like, preempting, like [00:30:00] two moves ahead or something. And then just don’t, don’t ask because that’s like the polite thing to do

    Jeanette: so interesting.

    Susan: Even though they’re like close family friends.

    Jeanette: Yeah. Because it’s like, it’s almost like Korean squared, because on one hand, I feel like it’s very Korean to want your kids and your son-in-law or daughter-in-law to do things a certain way, but then it’s also like very Korean too. Not to inconvenience, like anticipate other people’s needs. But then the story you just told Marvin, I feel like it’s kind of like a next order level of that.

    Jeanette: Let’s just not even invite because they might feel obligated and come, even if it’s hard for them. So let’s just not invite them anyway. You know? I mean, it’s just like kind of next order,

    Marvin: I guess this is all to say funny enough. My parents are not like imposing [00:31:00] some sort of like, yeah, Korean this on our.

    Marvin: And in fact, I feel like they try to avoid it so that they could avoid inconveniencing us. And I think that that makes Susan frustrated

    Susan: because I’m like this kid has an opportunity to know four languages like grandma every time, or how many, every time you’re here, please speak in Korean. And she’s like, are you sure?

    Susan: I don’t know. And she’ll start. And then she’ll just slip into English and then like, I’m makes me like so sad on such a deep level.

    Jeanette: Yeah. It’s I think it’s interesting that both of you guys are, I mean, I know Marvin, you maybe wouldn’t categorize yourself as Asian-American, but I mean, you’re kind of both in that spear.

    Jeanette: Right. But you have very different approaches and even on a very gut level, right? Like just how the pull of. Wanting [00:32:00] or needing to pass on some language and cultural heritage to your kid is like at a gut level, you just feel very differently about it.

    Susan: So,

    Kate: so I have a question. Well, this is still sort of related to your parents cause I actually think, you know, Marvin, your explanation offers a lot of. Insight. I also understand Susan’s perspective. It’s just really interesting. I think it must be a combination of both culture and their, just their personalities.

    Kate: Like my parents. Also like when, when I got married and I wanted to have a wedding ceremony in China, they never pushed that on me. I was like, I want it. And then I was like, I want to do all these Chinese, like, you know, little customs of like, you know, games to make the bride. It started the groom and the groomsmen play.

    Kate: And my parents were like, not into that. Didn’t even show up for it. Cause they’re just like, man, you know, like they’re not, I mean also try to not try to have the cultural revolution. It’s not like these things are deeply ingrained in the culture and they don’t, they also didn’t, you know, say, oh, you should, you know, raise your.

    Kate: Bilingual. I chose that, but they support it. So it’s, I think part of that is kind of their personality too. So [00:33:00] maybe Marvin with your parents, like part like the Korean part, their, their personality, but I’m curious, I’m going to ask this controversial question. So obviously you and Susan are different Asians.

    Kate: And I remember from Susan’s show one of her funny if I need jokes is that she is like, oh, as a Vietnamese American, I feel like I’m married up. I’m married Korean. Right. And so I know that definitely also Chinese people have this like hierarchy of Asians. Anyway, all that to say is, are you comfortable sharing how your parents felt if they felt anything particular about Susan being Vietnamese and not Korean, or did they not care?

    Susan: And let’s be honest, you know, my parents didn’t finish high school. Both of his parents went to the top universities in Korea, like they’re highly educated. So there is a class difference. Like Marvin grew up traveling to many countries growing up.[00:34:00]

    Marvin: I think. So nothing, nothing was like said from my parents on that question, you just asked Kate. But if I had to guess, I I’m thinking there was like some, some thought that happened like, oh, Vietnamese. Okay. How, how, how do we, how do we feel about that? I I’m guessing that, that there was like, like, like some, some

    Marvin: thinking like that.

    Kate: I never asked her, for example, every time if I mentioned that I’m dating someone to my dad. Like first questions out of his mouth would be basically, what color is this person? Where did he go to college? What is his job? You know, like it’s very stereotypical, like Chinese dad asking all these questions.

    Kate: Your parents never asked you, like when they heard you were dating a girl named Susan, like, you know, it doesn’t seem like,

    Marvin: yeah, [00:35:00] I, yeah. I think, I think like the, yes, I think there is definitely like a hierarchy in their mind. We were talking.

    Kate: Can you, can you, can, can you get, can you guess the hierarchy?

    Susan: Yeah. Like who’s better than Korean.

    Marvin: I mean, obviously for my mom, she loves Japan, so Japan is up there in the hierarchy and then probably Korea is next. So. But, but I think like the mitigating factor was probably like, oh, we met at Yale. Okay. And then there’s like the H-bomb like Susan went to Harvard.

    Marvin: So there’s probably all like those things that are like mitigating factors for Asian parents.

    Susan: They met me, they sadly realized I was jungle Asian through and through. I sucked the bones. I ate the [00:36:00] fish eyeballs. Like what? Like I was like, why do you use utensils? Why do we have fingers?

    Marvin: I guess it’s hard for them to argue with credentials. Yeah. It’s harder for

    Jeanette: it. Yeah. We’ll have to include this. When we do the what does going to Harvard get you credentials for a Mrs. Degree.

    Susan: Well, I, I, I said, I wasn’t going to butt in but I’m going to butt in Marvin. You’ve listened to some episodes of the podcast. In fact, you crammed before coming on

    Kate: Asians

    Susan: Highmark. So I’m curious when you listen to me talk about our family and our relationship, what do you disagree with? What are you like?

    Susan: Hmm. Now she got that wrong, you know? Or w what, what is your reaction hearing our [00:37:00] very private relationship in a public sphere?

    Marvin: I think the thing I had the gut reaction to was like division of labor and like who, who does more labor and what’s like the hidden labor, or is that the right term?

    Marvin: ’cause. Yeah. Maybe if we kept like accurate score, maybe Susan does more, but, but like, I kind of felt like, wait, wait a minute. She’s throwing me under the bus here. That’s how I felt when I heard that episode, because I feel like I do contribute a lot. My, like outside of my nine to five job. And I, I think like that actually comes from when I, when I was growing up, like, like I described the [00:38:00] type of person my dad was and he definitely did like nothing in the household at all.

    Marvin: And like, my mom was the person who didn’t work and I was responsible for everything else, like raising us and, and everything in the house. And I always felt like, like bad about that. It didn’t, it didn’t feel right to me. And maybe like me and my siblings all felt like a little bit of resentment towards my dad because of that.

    Marvin: So then I feel like for me then I do want to like be equal partner as much as I can. And I, I don’t know, like it we’d have to like keep accurate tally of everything we’re doing. But I, I do feel like I carry my weight in terms of like household work. [00:39:00] So I remember feeling like a bit uneasy about, about that.

    Marvin: And I was like, is that really, is that really an accurate representation of our house?

    Susan: He was telling me about it. I was like, okay, let’s make a T chart. What do you do? What do I do? And I was like, and I would just, I just like made my long list. And then he saw, and every time he tried to match another one and, and this like goes on and on, we flip the paper over and, and it’s, it’s, it’s like trying like that game fair play, like we’re trying to match up numerically or level of effort, whatever.

    Susan: But even I was just talking today on the podcast. I’m like, yeah. But even that wedding example about thinking like, Hey, are we thinking about your Korean culture? Are we thinking about honoring your parents correctly? Like, can we have a conversation about like, that’s invisible labor to me, that’s the, that’s the extra stuff?

    Susan: Or like, Hey, mark. Where did all the books and arts bookshelf come from, or like, [00:40:00] where does he get all his clothes? Like where do you think it is? Just like magically appears and magically sorts itself all the time. Like,

    Marvin: yeah, I guess. Yeah. Susan, definitely. Yeah. I don’t know how to like, categorize, like all the stuff that Susan deeply cares about much more than I do. I think definitely like the social stuff in, in, in the family, Susan cares much more deeply than I do. And like would, would do a hundred times more work there.

    Marvin: I think there, I, for me, it’s just like keeping the house. And then think things like that, but where I feel like I, I put in like a lot of energy and Susan doesn’t care that much about that. If, if she wasn’t married to me, she, yeah.

    Jeanette: Wait, are you [00:41:00] shaking your head? Because you’re agreeing with him that you don’t care that much or you’re shaking your head.

    Jeanette: Like, what are you talking about? Like, I do care. I pick up all the time.

    Susan: Oh no, no, I’m a slob. I, what I’m saying is like, when we moved here, we did not have an emergency contact. You know what I mean? Like who, if one of us got in trouble or if he was out in the mountains and I was by myself and I didn’t have the car, like who would we call?

    Susan: And in the beginning, when we first moved to this community and knew nobody, we had nobody, you know? And then when we list those people, now we have those names. Most of them are my friends, right. Or on the meal train who came through and dropped off that food. It was my friend. Right. And they have created this amazing social net for us that we call family here in the Pacific Northwest.

    Susan: But it’s like, I did that, but it’s also because I really enjoy that. And Marvin enjoys a clean counter.

    Jeanette: Yeah, I was just, I [00:42:00] think my reaction to hearing you guys is, well, one it’s like slightly uncomfortable, honestly, because it, you know, it’s like, it’s like listening to any couples you know, areas where they have a little bit more conflict.

    Jeanette: But my other thought is, is interesting because I think that for Jake, my husband, like, I think that that’s actually one of the areas. He also feels most uncomfortable about like, just listening to me talk on the podcast, but I think for slightly different reasons, which we can probe more when he comes on later this season And then my last thought is just, I think it’s really interesting, Marvin, that you said that the reason you feel more conscientious about it is because you know, of the division of labor between your parents and how I feel like it could have also, so like easily gone the other way.

    Jeanette: Right. Like, I think for a lot of people, like, especially [00:43:00] boys who grew up to be men, right. Like seeing that pattern, they just kind of accepted as the norm and then they expect that from their wives. Right. So I think it’s kind of interesting that for you it’s like, you kind of,

    Jeanette: it

    Jeanette: kind of pushed you the other way.

    Marvin: Yeah. I think maybe, yeah. I spent probably more time with my mom growing up. So maybe I took her aside on that point and maybe that’s why I landed there.

    Susan: Look, I want to acknowledge that Marvin also has really great taste and. Our living room is very tasteful. And if I did all the shopping, I just pick it off up the curb because it was free.

    Susan: And then just like, kind of wipe it with some Windex and be like, so, you know, we have really nice, beautiful things in our house. Like when we were buying windows, I was like, I didn’t even realize I [00:44:00] grew up with cheap windows. Like I didn’t, I just had no sense of what ugly and high quality was. Like. I was just like, it’s just like, just, you always choose the cheapest, you know?

    Susan: And like, Marvin has really taught me a lot about like, like I used to just buy things on clearance and never use them because I was like, oh, it’s a deal. But then I wouldn’t really use them. And he taught me like, sometimes it’s okay to buy things at retail price. And like, it still makes me cringe, but there are certain things like, if you really want it, you can have it.

    Susan: And that’s that. That has me doing a lot of unpacking of my own conditioning as a child of a refugee. So yeah, mark, Marvin teaches me stuff too.

    Jeanette: Well, so the other, sorry. And then there’s like the fourth thing was Susan. Like what you reminded me of, which is, you know, I do think that a lot of the perceived and real you know, inequalities and like labor around the house have to do with like what you care [00:45:00] about.

    Jeanette: Right. And what, what you feel like is important to you. Right? Because I think for a long time, I used to really I was Al I was resentful that Jake never cooked. He D he’s just not a good cook, you know, but, but I also know that if we weren’t together, he would just eat a tuna sandwich every night for dinner.

    Jeanette: And he would probably like feed that to our children and, you know, it would be fine, like nobody would starve. Right. But like, it’s because I, I don’t want to do that. And it’s important for me to like, eat better than that, that I spend a lot more time thinking about food, prepping food, you know, all of that.

    Jeanette: So so yeah, it’s kind of like the question, like, well, if you care about it more then, is it fair to, you know assign blame or resentment towards like, you’re the other person, as long as they’re also going to meet like the minimum bar, right. Or like, so, I mean, I think that that’s also kind of in play here, right?[00:46:00]

    Marvin: Yeah. I think that’s, that’s really the heart. Susan cares deeply about things that maybe are not as important to me. And there’s like, things that I care about that Susan wouldn’t have paid attention to. She, she was not married to me. So yeah, like Susan cares deeply about like community and socializing and yeah.

    Marvin: Just like connecting with lots of people and, and yeah, I definitely, I probably fall short there and Susan, Susan does a lot of the work to keep like us like connected to friends and meeting new people and inviting people over. Yeah. So I think that’s like the heart of it as a couple, you just care about different things and then you just have lots of feelings around it when your partner.[00:47:00]

    Jeanette: But isn’t it interesting, because I have this theory that some part of you, like the reason you’re together with your partner is because some part of you recognizes that you need that other part, right? You need that partner who , cares about the things that you don’t care about.

    Jeanette: But then it also turns into a source of tension and resentment. Right? Jake’s like some part of his, like, I can not feed my children, my future children, tuna out of the canned every night. So I need to find somebody who actually cares about this stuff, but then once you’re together, it just kind of creates a resentment because I’m like, I care about this stuff.

    Jeanette: I’m doing all this stuff. Like, why won’t you, you know? And so yeah, I think that’s kind of, that’s interesting because I feel like I see this pattern over and over in my friends. Right. So I feel like subconsciously, people must be looking for that person who is the

    Jeanette: opposite of them.

    Susan: Right. But you’re going to have this inevitable ego clash because they are different than you. And you’re like, why are you doing that? Why are you? You know? But maybe what I’m hearing Jeanette from you is like, Jerry [00:48:00] McGuire, like you complete me.

    Jeanette: Although I think we’re dating ourselves with the Jerry Maguire reference.

    Jeanette: Like some people might not know what that is.

    Susan: Yeah. And also because Marvin grew up in Canada, Hong Kong, I can’t talk to him about American TV. He’s like, what’s saved by the bell screech. I was like, he died. You don’t know who he is.

    Jeanette: Yeah. Jake doesn’t know any, he’s always like, was that on cable? I talk about Fresh Prince of Bel-Air and he’s like, was that on cable?

    Jeanette: I’m like, no, it’s like, was that a WB? I wasn’t allowed to watch that. So yeah, that’s another, that’s another gap between us

    Jeanette: okay. Do you want to shoot that next question?

    Kate: Oh yeah. Well, I was also really curious. Cause I think one of the interesting things about the two of you as a couple is that you know, you and Susan met while you’re both in business schools. So it kind of seems like your [00:49:00] professional paths or educational path like converged, but then as time went on, they diverged, right?

    Kate: I mean, Marvin, you started off as an architect and then you went to the dark side, you and tech Susan start. Well, I mean, I don’t know if I can see you went and started in the dark side is consulting the dark side. I don’t know, whatever. Anyway and then, you know, she went and became an artist. And so just curious, like, can we get your thoughts on.

    Kate: I guess when you’ve met Susan, is this something you had an inkling of in your mind? And then as time progressed and things became clear that she wanted to take this path how did one, how did you feel about it Two how did you support her? Or, you know, what are some of the challenges from the spouse’s perspective and then how you feel about it now?

    Marvin: So when I first met Susan, her career path seemed like she’d be like an [00:50:00] executive director at a nonprofit or something like that was the path she was going for. I think originally, Susan, you wanted to.

    Marvin: Going into law or something like something around social justice and law know, I think like Susan had like a path in mind. When I met her, then she got confused in business school, I think, and thought maybe she wanted to go into CPG products or something and blew open, like a whole can of worms. And yeah.

    Marvin: So I guess, yeah. So, so after business school, Susan was doing like business school type jobs by consulting for companies and things like that. And then when [00:51:00] she decided to go down the path of becoming a performance art. I, it definitely took me a while to come around to it. It wasn’t like a natural, like, oh yeah.

    Marvin: Just like go for it. So there’s probably like a one month period where I had to like, just, just like, think about it.

    Susan: And at this time we had just gotten a mortgage and we were still having plenty of business, school, payment debts, that payments.

    Marvin: So I think like what eventually brought me around to it, because like, when Susan was pursuing her performance career, it was really about like, trying to figure out what happened to her mom.

    Marvin: Like who is her mom, like what’s going on with her family? Like that, that was like when she was after. And then I realized like, oh, this is like, Susan’s life, life work. [00:52:00] I’m like, I can’t get in the way of that. But like, am I going to be the person to like stop Susan from doing her life’s work? It’s I said, I like some point I realized, like, this is just like the most important thing for her in her life.

    Marvin: And I had to like get out of the way and support her on it. Like, like if it was not her life’s work and I was just like, convinced that it was just like some minor distraction. Maybe I would have tried to talk her out of it and put up more of a fight. But

    Susan: yeah, you mean like if I wanted to go to clown school, right?

    Susan: If you want to go to class, look into the mid Oakland, they were very interesting.

    Marvin: Yeah. So, so yeah, it probably took me like a couple of weeks to realize that. And then I th I think like at that point I [00:53:00] could get behind the idea, but I was still nervous. I was definitely still nervous. So I had to like, put some terms in there, put, put like a guard rail in there, which was like, oh, you have to like make this much money in, in one year.

    Marvin: Like I came up with some arbitrary number. So that’s how I like, yeah.

    Jeanette: I have a question. So when you say that you were nervous, can you talk more about that? Like what were you nervous? Sorry? What were you nervous about?

    Marvin: I think like maybe on the surface, it seems like I was nervous about money. But I think that wasn’t really what I was nervous about.

    Marvin: I think I was nervous that Susan wouldn’t take it seriously, but like, she just like, half-ass it. And then like a year later it’s like, oh, what am I doing? And then just go [00:54:00] back to like consulting or something. And then, then it ended up being like a year long distraction. I think that’s what I was nervous about.

    Kate: What you feel that way though. Marvin, like had she done things in the past were like, you know, there’s a reason why you, you would have that specific worry, right?

    Marvin: Like Susan is full of ideas, like all the time. And yeah, she is just like a ball of energy and has like a hundred ideas each week. And is like looking for people to go implement them.

    Marvin: And so you could easily see if you like, hang out with Susan enough, you could easily see like, oh, is this just another one of those ideas? Or, or is this like something she’s really gonna put energy into? Obviously like the family story, [00:55:00] you know, it makes sense. And that Susan would want to like put all her energy into that.

    Marvin: So I had to like realize that and then recognize that this was like a bit different than the a hundred other ideas that she has each week. So, so I think I put those guardrails there to like force her to take it seriously. Let me, maybe I then even like consciously think that at the time, but I think that’s probably what I was doing.

    Marvin: I was saying you got to make this much money. Doing it. And then maybe I was hoping like that would force Susan to be like, okay, I’m going to seriously think about this. And then make it work. So yeah, I, I was, I was definitely nervous about it. Yeah. And it, yeah. I had to like process it and, you know, like I was saying, I think I like put in those guard rails without even [00:56:00] knowing why I was doing it at the, at

    Marvin: the time.

    Susan: And he tiger dad did me. He was like, okay. One of the guardrails is you need to get an article in the Atlantic within a year.

    Jeanette: That’s ambitious.

    Susan: Yeah.

    Marvin: I mean, I mean, I think you accomplished that. Maybe it wasn’t exactly. But

    Susan: I, within a year, within a year, I got an article two articles in the LA times, and I exceeded my financial goal by 110%, which means I’m a bad-ass or we’re really bad at making targets.

    Jeanette: Yeah, one of the things I’m thinking about is just kind of the, just a philosophical thought around , marriage, right? I mean when you meet somebody and you get together and you get married, it’s at a certain point in time.

    Jeanette: Right. And you have this, like, it was referring to you have this kind of trajectory that you think you’re on and then life can really change. Right. Either because. You have some [00:57:00] realization about what you’re doing or, or because of like external circumstances, right? Like somebody gets sick or like something dramatic happens.

    Jeanette: Right. And how do you deal with that? How do you think about that? And then I guess, like my other thought, just observing you guys is I just feel like the peanut gallery, just like you guys are talking and then I’m just providing random commentary is that it’s, it’s hard. It’s like I could, Marvin, like when you were talking about, you know, Susan, like having done different things, like I dunno if I’m just reading into Susan’s face, like what I see on the screen, but, you know, I, I feel like the same, like I could imagine Jake talking about the same things about like choices I’ve made.

    Jeanette: And actually like how hard it is. It’s much harder to hear your partner talk about it maybe than even somebody else. And I was just thinking about why that is, right? Because in some ways that person knows your trajectory. The most, there’s nothing that’s really hidden from them. [00:58:00] Right. But your spouse is also this person, you also want to , keep their respect, right.

    Jeanette: And their confidence in you. And sometimes that can not, it’s not always easy to do that with somebody who knows everything.

     , well, one of the questions I had for you, Marvin, is as you guys have become parents together, is there something new you feel like you’ve learned about yourself or about Susan?

    Marvin: Hmm. I think I learned something about being a dad that I hadn’t heard, talked about before. So I enjoy a lot of outdoor activities. So I liked to do mountaineering and back country skiing and [00:59:00] certain activities like that. And I definitely devoted a lot of energy to it before I became a parent.

    Marvin: And then I think once I became a parent, I had to like, figure out like, what do I do with that? Like how can I fit it in? Like, it’d be sad if I just like, killed that part. The. Like me and sound like trying to figure out how do I work that part of me, into my life, into my dad, I identity. And then I think I realized like, there’s like good templates out there.

    Marvin: Or like what, like, society’s like developing templates for, how do you balance like work career family, child, and that, and that’s like, talked about, I mean, maybe, maybe we’re not like where we want to be, but like in society in terms of [01:00:00] like balancing all that. But, but we like, definitely talk about it a lot.

    Marvin: So it’s like, oh yeah, you can be mom or dad and have to have, have like this career. And like the workplace should make space for you to like, do that. But then what are you, if you have this other hop, like this other passion, that’s not as neither family nor work. Like how do you work that in?

    Marvin: And I know no one that I know, like has really like, talked about it. I actually there’s one person who’s kind of a famous climber who has talked about it. So I, I I’ve appreciated that his name is Steve Swenson. He’s actually from Seattle. And he owns a, an engineering consulting firm and had a couple of kids and, and was actually a big time climber.

    Marvin: So he talks about , trying to manage all of that. Yeah. So I guess I realize [01:01:00] there’s templates or, or there’s probably even like groups and conversations. You can be a part of where it’s like, how do you manage your, your career and your family identity? And then I realized, oh, no, there’s no like template for me when you want to do three things.

    Marvin: So then I realized that about my own life by, after having the child. I think I, like, I didn’t actually think too hard about it until like, after art was here. So like, how am I actually actually managing that? I think where managing it like Susan and I have like an agreements and I we’re each going to do our personal passionate.

    Marvin: Stuff. And we have a spreadsheet to keep track of the days. So Susan does like her things to like fill her cup weight, which includes seeing her friends, like I fly into San Francisco and seeing [01:02:00] some friends, or it could be going to the earth mother circle on Sundays, and then we mark it in the spreadsheet and then I can try to carve out time to do the things that I want to do.

    Marvin: So that’s how, how we’re handling it as a family. But, but we just like made that up, like like, yeah, there, there was no person out there that we could look to to be like, how do you, how do you handle it? And like, I think the other thing is like me personally, Those hobbies are important to me and I, and I feel like I’m someone who doesn’t actually take career that seriously.

    Marvin: Like I’m not on a scale of one to 10. I’m probably like a six and the like, like a nine or something on that scale in terms of my career and how seriously I take it. [01:03:00] So, so yeah, so, so like these hobbies that I have are an important part of me and I’m just trying to figure out how to incorporate it while being a parent.

    Jeanette: Yeah. And I don’t, I don’t mean this in a pejorative way, but like kind of making it up as you guys go, right?

    Marvin: Yeah, yeah. Making, making it up. So,

    Jeanette: and figuring things out that would be the better way of putting it.

    Marvin: Yeah. So I do appreciate it when I hear like other people who are parents who also are trying to juggle like these three things, which, which is family work and like some major passion that you might have that is not actually work.

    Marvin: Yeah. So I appreciated when I hear from those people, but like, like the sort of advice I hear so far is just like, yeah. Some, sometimes some parts of your life are not going to go as well. That has just like the type of stuff I hear. So I feel like I haven’t [01:04:00] heard anything. That’s like the big solve for this yet.

    Jeanette: And how about the second part of that question? Which is, do you feel like you’ve learned anything about Susan or your partnership from being parents.

    Jeanette: Or I guess the other way to put that is , I don’t know if you’ve ever envisioned Susan as a mom, but like she basically the bomb that you thought she was going to be, or is she different in some way?

    Marvin: I don’t think, like I had like a picture of that, of like the type of mom Susan would be, maybe that’s not true, but like, Susan is very energetic. So I always thought like, okay, she’s going to be very good with kids. She’s she’s, she’s very playful. And then she’s going to be really great around kids. And like before we had kids, she was great around [01:05:00] like other people’s kids.

    Marvin: So yeah, I, I,

    Susan: this is like all in the past tense and I’m like,

    Marvin: so I think that has like been true also. And yeah. Well, what was your, what was your original question? If I realize something about Susan?

    Jeanette: Yeah. If you feel like you’ve realized something about some of the, because I just feel like being a parent changes you so much. Right.

    Jeanette: And it also does bring out other parts of you that maybe weren’t that visible before. So I’m just wondering, If you feel like your view of Susan has changed with our being as being a mom, or if there’s something about your relationship that’s shifted right.

    Jeanette: With with becoming parents,

    Marvin: I guess, I guess like my honest answer is I don’t think like that [01:06:00] much has shifted.

    Jeanette: That’s good. I mean, I think it’s always, that’s like, that’s actually good because the parenting gets can sometimes be such a earthquake, right? For a relationship.

    Marvin: I think if anything, maybe I realized Susan does have like limits to her energy, like suit Susan can, can run out of energy and might be being a parent.

    Marvin: And I guess reveals. Yeah. Cause like, yeah. Yeah. Sue Susan is like this, this ball of energy. Now we’re all tired. Yeah. I finally met your match citizen.

    Susan: Yeah. It’s called sleep deprivation. I want to stress something about me and Marvin’s approach to parenting, which is wasn’t there like a Daniel Conaman study that we were looking at before we were having kids about like, how are we not [01:07:00] going to have the worst years of our marriage and get divorced, like a lot of other couples.

    Susan: And it was like, while the kid is age zero to 18, those are going to be the unhappiest years of your marriage. So I didn’t, we go into it with our eyes pretty wide open going like, okay, how do we not do that? Or did I do it? And it was invisible labor.

    Marvin: Yeah, I think that was definitely on my mind too that we were entering like treacherous territory. Yeah, so, so yeah, we, I guess we’ve been like, pretty cautious about it. I mean, we did couples counseling, like

    Susan: we did the Gottman I was like, they actually prepared us, nothing about bringing the actual baby home. It was actually just talking to each other more.

    Marvin: I think [01:08:00] it’s definitely top of mind for us. Yeah, a lot, like someone said like, oh, just like buying these baby books, we’ll make this, the fact that you bought these baby books will make you a better parent.

    Marvin: And you don’t actually have to read it.

    Susan: Marvin took that way too seriously if he does not actually read them. And he’s like, it’s fine. I read the back.

    Marvin: Yeah. Selection bias. So, so I, I guess like just the fact that we’re like, even conscious that yeah. PR parents are in for a tough time.

    Marvin: Then we have to be more intentional about our, a couple of happiness. I think we’ve tried to do that as a couple.

    Susan: Well, Marvin, as we wrap up for our episode, I have one final question before you, before we go into this new segment of our season, which is Marvin, what is your [01:09:00] advice to other dads to be dads thinking about being dads, current dads who are in the early days, what is your one piece of advice to them?

    Susan: Knowing everything, you know, now a year and a half.

    Marvin: I think I’ll go back to my point about the hobbies. There’s not lots of conversations around that and not a good template for how, how do you like hold on to hobbies, outside of work and outside of family. So I think just like, thinking about that and just coming up with your own strategy for how you want to handle that as a, as a couple as a family I think that’s a helpful thing to just , think about it.

    Susan: Thank you. Well, thank you so much for Marvin joining us on the podcast. I’ve actually learned new things about you and about your family. So thank you [01:10:00] ladies for asking questions in a way that we usually don’t talk about, okay, so what we’re going to be doing for season three is at the end of every episode, we are going to be doing a lightning round of questions so I can get deep inside the brains of the people on the show.

    Susan: And the segment is called insight thoughts, and it’ll be a lightning round. I’ll say what the prompt is. I’ll say what my answer is, and we will go in ABC order. Please say the first thing that comes to your mind, because I want to get into your subconscious, okay. One, what is something weird and judgy you do for me?

    Susan: I look at people’s toes and make up stories about them, Jeanette

    Jeanette: Weird and judge you when I go to the playground and I see nannies not paying attention to their charges. I’m very judgy of that.

    Susan: Yeah. Kate.

    Kate: Oh, where do I start? I’m such a judgy person. OMG. Oh, I don’t know. Like, I guess like specifically with [01:11:00] regard to my husband, he’s going to hate this. So he walks around the house and like socks and then his underwear, which doesn’t make any sense to me.

    Kate: Every time we’ve been married now we’ve known each other for like six years. Like what the fuck is wrong with you? It’s cold. That’s why you’re wearing socks. That’s why he says he wears socks, but then why aren’t you wearing fucking underwear? Put some fucking pants on it. Just pisses me off every time he does that.

    Kate: Okay. That’s it.

    Susan: Marvin.

    Susan: No. I mean,

    Kate: I don’t, but like so many people.

    Susan: All right. What has been a recent proud parent moment for you? During Halloween at daycare, all the kids wanted like face painting, like little cats, little pumpkins and Marvin, I’m sorry. Apartment art showed up as Coco with a, like a skeleton and like all white base and like [01:12:00] black bushy eyebrows.

    Susan: Like I was like, oh my God, my child is not basic. Get Jeanette.

    Jeanette: Well this evening, right before this recording my 15 month old wanted this toy camera and she was asking for it from her three and a half year old brother, and he just gave it to her and he looked so embarrassed. But I was really proud of him that that he was so generous and kind with his younger sister.

    Jeanette: So that was my prop parenting moment,

    Susan: Kate.

    Marvin: Oh, I

    Kate: don’t know my proud parenting moment. Oh, this means I must be a bad parent. I’m proud I did this weekend. Oh yeah. Well, there was not like this week, this weekend, but like a week ago my daughter pooped while she was sitting in her bath tub and didn’t know.

    Kate: So she was sitting in her own poo water for long time. And

    Susan: That’s how I, I, I

    Kate: mean, I lost my shirt for about two seconds, but then I was like, you know, I gotta, I gotta [01:13:00] triage. So I took her out, I cleaned her, I showered her. I cleaned the poop, which, you know, if poop sits in water for awhile, it’s kind of gross.

    Kate: Yeah. And I managed to do it and you know, I’m pregnant without throwing up and like, or gagging. And I was like, I want like 10

    Susan: stars for being supermom.

    Jeanette: Yeah. You deserve 10 stars for that.

    Susan: I’ll leave a review. Marvin. How about you?

    Marvin: I think when art like falls over and bangs his head, he he’ll he’ll he’ll cry.

    Marvin: And then he’ll grab his head and say Ali, and then I’ll just move on with his life, like five seconds later. And I’m like, wow. That’s like, that’s resilience. So I’m always proud of him when he does

    Susan: final question. What do you want your partner to buy you for Christmas? I want a Japanese Cedar onsen tub.

    Susan: Jeanette. That’s

    Kate: not what you said before we [01:14:00] started

    Susan: recording. I thought, oh my God, I want a Batman. So my child isn’t like slip and fall and break his forehead. But I was like, is that what my life is now? Just like basic home goods, Jeanette.

    Jeanette: Oh, so hard. I have a hard time with gifts can you come back?

    Susan: Sorry. Okay. Kate Nirav

    Kate: knows what I want. I haven’t decided it’s between one of two designer bags. So, you know, for all the suffering that I endured,

    Susan: you’ve set him up for success with being specific and Marvin yes.

    Marvin: A scale for measuring coffee.

    Susan: Oh my God. It’s so

    Kate: fucking expensive. Sorry. Is that a separate skill from like a food scale?

    Marvin: Yes. It’s a scale that can fit under an espresso machine.

    Susan: I was like, what are you doing? Like, I’ll see your training for the, like the world barista Olympics. No, it’s like hella expensive, but mine is way more expensive. But a girl has got to dream.

    Jeanette: Thanks Marvin. [01:15:00] For coming on.

    Kate: Thanks Marvin. I learned a lot about you in a good way.

    Susan: Goodnight. Bye. Bye. Bye.

    Jeanette: we hope you found something helpful, reassuring or interesting in this episode of model minority moms. If you enjoyed the episode, please help us spread the word by texting a friend about our show or leave us a review on apple podcasts. If you want to connect with us, please visit our website. Add model minority moms.com, or follow us on Instagram, where we love receiving messages from our listeners.

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