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  • Susan: [00:00:00] And like, I finally feel like my body is almost pre baby shape where I feel like, like when I go work out, P’s not coming out when my hair is thinned out, but at least I don’t have the wispies, you know?

    Susan: Or like, I feel like I’m, I like, I’m good now. And then I’m like, and then you’re going to start it all over again. And I’m like, I don’t want that. And then the final reason why I’m still on the fence is I, I tell this to Marvin, like my first kids art. My second kid is my actual creative art. And my third kid is my mental health.

    Susan: Can I possibly have another kid?

     Welcome To model minority moms, where we talk about the meaning of success in career, family, and life. We are Janette park,

    Kate: Kate

    Kate: Wong

    Susan: And Susan Lu,

    [00:01:00] Harvard, classmates, and Asian-American working moms. Who get real about the pressures of fitting in while standing out.

    Susan: Hello everyone. And welcome back to season three of model minority moms. We’ve been quiet for a little bit, but we haven’t been napping.

    Susan: We’ve got an amazing season light up for this next couple of months. We’ve got husbands. Husbands will be coming. They’re going to say what they think of the podcast we are going to be talking about how do we deal with the breakup of adult relationships of what does Harvard really get you and so much more, so much more.

    Susan: So season three is going to be awesome. But today I really am excited about today’s topic because it’s, it’s more about growing your family, which is done, done your second kid to have one, not to have one. How should you do it? How should you approach it? And the reason why we’re talking about it today is because we have some really, really, really, really big [00:02:00] news.

    Susan: Kate, what’s your literal big news?

    Kate: Well, it turns out I have been napping for the last couple of months, cause guess what? Bitches I’m pregnant and it’s been the shittiest ass pregnancy ever. Okay. Do be really happy. You know, most were like

    Kate: No, but I mean, you, I mean, I’m happy, like, sorry, I’m happy that we’re having another kid, but this pregnancy has literally been like the opposite of my first one. And if I had this first I don’t think I’d want another kid or like, I wouldn’t want to be pregnant with another, like, I wouldn’t want to go through pregnancy,

    Susan: but wait, like walk us back through this journey you were like, Hey, my body’s falling apart.

    Susan: I need to have the second kid now. Right? Like it wasn’t because you want it to it’s because your body was, you know, no question.

    Kate: I mean, I would say both, actually I never, you know, also I’m an only child. I think that the three of us, I’m the only one, who’s an only child. And then my husband’s also an only child.

    Kate: So I know that some only children are like, oh, I really wanted like a sibling growing up. And then some others are like, no screw that. [00:03:00] I think for me and Nirav if we both thought it would be nice to not just, you know, have one kid, so they’d keep the other kid company. But if you know me, you also know that I don’t love kids.

    Kate: I mean, I’m not like a Grinch or anything, but you don’t have some people just love kids. And they’re just like, oh, babies. I’m not, I liked my kid. I liked my baby when she was a baby. But I just, I don’t know. Like I just not, I don’t have a huge like thing affinity for kids. Right. I have a bunch of girlfriends were like,

    Kate: Kate, I have no maternal bone in my body.

    Kate: Like I can’t imagine myself

    Kate: having like a kid. I’m like, don’t worry. That was me on in my kids. But you know, after having our first one, she was so much fun. Well, after, you know, like sleep deprivation, all that, but she’s really fun. And I was like, you know, I really, I think it would be really fun for her to have a sibling.

    Kate: And I would not have thought that before I had it. Which is very bizarre to me. So we wanted to have a second kid because of that, the timing is more like, cause I had a bunch of health issues and the doctors are like, okay, you need to like hurry up.

    Kate: Cause then you have to have this surgery, you take these meds, blah, blah, blah, when you’re done. So, [00:04:00] you know, they weren’t like, you should do it now, but they’re like, you know, sooner rather than later, like is better. And so the timing is why now versus I dunno waiting a few years. So

    Susan: yeah,

    Susan: God, I mean, I, I remember I was like, no, I’m one and done.

    Susan: And I had heard so many families with more than one kid saying the first one’s for you, the second ones for the other kid. And I’m like, I hear that. I’m feeling that I’m feeling that right now. I know it would be way more enjoyable for art and. For me actually, maybe they, you know, they’d be playing together and that’d be great, but like, I hear you and I’m just, I am terrified about how much more work it is.

    Susan: You know, people are always saying like, okay, a second kid, isn’t twice as much work. It’s three times. It’s four times as much work. And we’ve got an interesting scenario here because Kate’s pregnant with her second. I still have one. I’m definitely not pregnant. And [00:05:00] Jeanette already has two. So Jeanette, like, is it seriously?

    Susan: I mean, how much more work is it?

    Jeanette: Wrote in our little spreadsheet on this topic, that one plus one equals 11.

    Kate: That’s way more than three.

    Jeanette: Yeah. So maybe it’s not 11. So I think for me, one measure of how hard parenthood is, is just the amount of time you have for yourself,

    Jeanette: and when you have one kid, it definitely goes way down, but it doesn’t go to zero because you still have one kid. So you can trade off with your partner on, who’s watching the kid. If you have a partner, if you have, if you have a partner. Yes. But when you have two kids, my experience is that, you know, and this might just be like part of my personality, parenting style, my kids’ personalities and their needs.

    Jeanette: But what I found is, so my daughter is 15 months now. Right. I kind of see this starting to shift, but for the first, over a [00:06:00] year it was very, very difficult for just one adult to watch both children at the same time, because my son is three and a half. And, you know, at any moment he could say, I need to go potty now.

    Jeanette: Or like, I am literally going poop in my pants right now, you know? And I need to rush him to the bathroom, but it’s also entirely possible that I was in the middle of changing my daughter’s poopy diaper. And she’s about to reach down into our crotch and pull a bunch of poop out, you know?

    Jeanette: So, so So, you know, it’s just these scenarios are very real possibility.

    Susan: Can I also add, we only have one bathroom in our house and sometimes Marvin is like brushing his teeth or he’s on the potty and I’m like, I have to go right now. Like I can’t even imagine. I always tell that to him to get off the pot because I have to go.

    Susan: But then there’s another kid. Like I don’t, there’s so much poof, there’s so much poop,

    Jeanette: poop. And or that’s just like one number, one thing, right. It’s like, kind of, I’m doing this. And another kid is like, happens to be climbing the [00:07:00] bookcase, you know, and I have to go get them off. So the bottom line is, it was, it was really hard for one adult to watch both kids for at least the first, I would say 15 to 18 months of the second child’s life.

    Jeanette: And maybe this is different if your older kid is much older, but for like the spacing that we have, like, that was my experience. And so for like the first 15, and I think like 18 months. My free time, essentially went close to zero, right. Like I ha I had no time for myself. It was just literally work, work housework kids.

    Jeanette: And that was it. Right. Because I did switch off with my, with my husband, but it was switching off kids so that we would have one kid at a time. So it was either harder or less hard depending on what you think is hard. And how much my daughter, the younger one was napping on, on any given day.

    Jeanette: And I found that really challenging, right. Just physically, but also emotionally to [00:08:00] have no time for yourself for a whole over a year. So, so that’s what I mean by like, I don’t actually think it’s twice as hard or, I mean, it’s just, it’s, it’s, it’s significantly harder. I think as.

    Jeanette: They’re getting bigger. Now I kind of see like, becoming more possible that my husband or I could take both of the kids for more prolonged periods or like, or we could even take them out. We’re not at that point yet, but I, I feel like that

    Jeanette: that will happen soon. But but that’s, that was the first like, you know, 15 months for us.

    Jeanette: But again,

    Susan: I think it really depends on your kids right now though. She’s 15 months right

    Jeanette: now. Yeah. So like the last 15 months has, I mean, it’s been delightful, like, you know, and we can talk about the joys of having two kids, but it’s also really hard. I also want to asterisk this with the fact that I do also know other families.

    Jeanette: Two kids who are very similarly aged but like, I think [00:09:00] the dynamics are different because their kids are much more chill and they’re happy to sit in the stroller or happy to sit in a high chair for long periods of time. My kids are just not like that. They’re not super rambunctious, but they are very active and they don’t like to be confined or strapped into anything, you know?

    Jeanette: So they, they need a lot of engagement and a lot of oversight.

    Susan: Yeah. Yeah. It’s all about their temperament. And you don’t, you don’t know what kind of kid you’re going to get. Yeah.

    Kate: Well, it’s funny because it reminds me a couple of stories I’ve heard from friends who are like, you know, one of the reasons they decided to have a second is I’ll tell two stories.

    Kate: They’re both really funny. So I have a friend who’s a little older and her first insect actually they’re twits. Right? So her first were twins, which if you think about twins, you’re just like, oh my God, that sounds like insane. Right. And she’s a lawyer. Her husband had finance at the time, but you know what she said, she was like, you know, the twins were easy.

    Kate: They like ate. Well, they slept well, like, and then we had a nanny. So then we decided to have like a second [00:10:00] slash third, you know, like second pregnancy, third kid and she was like, oh my God, my son didn’t eat well, didn’t sleep. Well, nothing went well and basically was like harder than both of his sisters combined.

    Kate: Right. And so, you know, I think I can, I think what Jeanette was saying makes sense. Cause it really depends on the kid, especially when they’re like an infant or they are colicky things are going on. That makes me so much harder. Right. And then I have another friend who her son is like five years older than her daughter.

    Kate: And so, and he was apparently according to her, like easy kid, like, you know, you tell him to do this and he like, does this and know all this other stuff. And then her daughter who’s in school with. My daughter is just much more like headstrong, willful, like, you know, even though her son’s pretty, he’s pretty independent.

    Kate: Like when we hang out, he’s like kind of doing his own thing and he doesn’t need to be managed a lot, but boy, she has her hands full with just like the younger one. Right. So I think, yeah, I feel like temperament maybe age gap too. [00:11:00] I don’t know. Jeanette, if your friends like, have talked about that, just gapping between kids makes a difference too.

    Jeanette: Yeah. Well, I mean, that’s, I think something that you said Kate about the personality differences. I mean, I think for me though, that is part of the fun of having a second kid is how different my two kids are from each other. And it makes me think, you know, men produce, I’m going to make these numbers up, but it’s a lot of sperm every day, right?

    Jeanette: Thousands or hundreds of thousands or millions of sperm every day. And like, you have a lot of eggs, so it’s just like, the potential combinations are so many. And then somehow you just like lottery out one or two, or how many ever kids you have. Right. Like, it’s definitely not going to be like millions, but just like the two lottery draws that we’ve got, you know, they’re super, they’re really different from each other.

    Jeanette: My son is at least so far, like he’s very relational. He’s very, he’s really into abstract ideas. He’s very verbal. And then my daughter, she’s kind of like your friend’s daughter. She’s very headstrong. She’s very [00:12:00] willful. She’s she just has like a, a stronger personality and it’s really kind of fun and interesting to see that

    Susan: Jeanette, did you want to have a second kid because you all.

    Susan: A sibling or like, was that always part of the plan or like,

    Jeanette: yeah, I think I I’ve always wanted two kids. I don’t know why. I just always did. I do have a brother. And I just felt like one kid, it felt kind of lonely, honestly, if I’m, you know, if I’m totally transparent about it, like, I, I felt like it was a little lonely, so I always imagined myself having two kids if I could.

    Jeanette: And then the timing of it was partly driven by like, so for my first kid, I actually didn’t have any maternity leave because I quit my job like right before I got pregnant. Damn. I literally got pregnant like a week after I, I quit my job and was kind of doing some more unstructured entrepreneurial stuff.

    Jeanette: And so I didn’t get any maternity leave for him. [00:13:00] And so for my daughter, as soon as I qualify for maternity. My job, I was like, okay, we can get pregnant now. And we just , started trying. And then this was also different because for my son, we had tried for a year and didn’t get pregnant for over a year.

    Jeanette: So it was a little harder. But then for my daughter, we got pregnant basically right away. So, you know, there’s some element of timing that you can control and some element you can’t. But I, I, but I always knew that also, like, I didn’t want my kids to be too far apart. I kind of wanted them to be closer in age so that they could play together and grow up together.

    Susan: Oh, I’m so on the fence you have siblings. I have three. Y I have four siblings. Yeah. Siblings. Yes.

    Kate: Does that inform at all your thought around whether or not to have a second? And then of course, Marvin has two younger brothers.

    Susan: Yeah. Damn. It’s so hard to say, man, like family, so complicated. Like, I just went back to California in July and also a few [00:14:00] weeks ago.

    Susan: And there is something about the comfort of people knowing you. And even if, if what you do to hang out is just air grievances and put each other down at least, you know, what to expect and you know, what the rules are. And it’s actually kind of funny, like, it’s, it’s this like internal world that we’ve created that is somewhat like masochistic, but yet enjoyable.

    Susan: Like, it’s very strange. Now, if I am in prison, need bail in a cop, you know, like if I am screwed, can I call one of them? Like, say they’re in the neighborhood. Yes, absolutely can call them. Right. Like there is these people that have known me my entire life, right. It’s like, it’s such a powerful bond and we have our ups.

    Susan: We have our downs. We do, but we do have ups and. My siblings and I are really intense people. Like we have a five day sleep over called extreme indulgence for the [00:15:00] Christmas holidays. Like we choose to be together, even if it’s not like Partridge family, you know, but I talk to people sometimes and they tell me that they, they don’t talk to their siblings and that they’re really sad about it.

    Susan: And I’m that. So that makes me feel grateful that we’re in a better place, but it’s still work. It’s still worked in to manage a lot of people’s different expectations. And I mean, at the end of the day, you always kind of, you wonder, like what, I have really been friends with these people, if they weren’t there or in a relationship with them, if they weren’t my family, you know, and that’s like a really tough question to answer.

    Susan: So then I think about Jeanette’s probability question here, and then I go, okay, if I’m in my new age self, I go, oh, this person was put in front of me because of. Before we were born, we had an agreement and we were going to teach each other lessons and deepen our love and compassion based on the lessons we [00:16:00] were meant to have.

    Susan: You know, like I say that to myself when it gets hard. But for me personally, right now, the shop is closed for business. It is sealed shut. I just went to see a spirit channeler in Houston when I went to go see my dad. And like, I was like, you’re going to have a baby girl. And I was like, no, I’m not. I was like, you mean, I’m adopting of baby girl.

    Susan: He was like, no, it’s going to come right from your loins, natural baby from their body. And I was so freaked out cause I was like, I’ve been drinking wine. Oh, I come home. I go to the drug store. I’m staring at the pregnancy test aisle and it was like all, it was like PTSD from like trying to get pregnant the first time.

    Susan: And I’m like, okay, should I get the generic one? Or should I get the expensive one? Which one will be more truthful. And I was like, it’d be so messed up. If the cheap ones actually don’t tell you the truth. Right. And then I was like, I’m not going to be a punk. And then I bought the generic ones and then I peed on the stick and I was like, okay, Marvin, are you ready?

    Susan: And then we kept [00:17:00] looking at it and we were like, definitely not pregnant. Definitely. And I was like, okay. So I’m definitely, I mean, it’s still close for business, but I’m starting to get the wonder of like, Ooh, am I going to be one of those people? Like I S I used those families when it’s like, kid is like 10 years old.

    Susan: And then the parents haven’t like a stroller, you know, where I’m like, damn, they gave away all this stuff. Now they have to go get those resources again. Maybe even just buying them online, you know, like more consumerism. And it’s like, the gap is like, Years apart. And like, I finally feel like my body is almost pre baby shape where I feel like, like when I go work out, P’s not coming out when my hair is thinned out, but at least I don’t have the wispies, you know?

    Susan: Or like, I feel like I’m, I like, I’m good now. And then I’m like, and then [00:18:00] you’re going to start it all over again. And I’m like, I don’t want that. And then the final reason why I’m still on the fence is I, I tell this to Marvin, like my first kids art. My second kid is my actual creative art. And my third kid is my mental health.

    Susan: Can I possibly have another kid? I feel like during the pandemic, I’ve been really trying really hard to be stable and productive and kind to other people and like, and so many other things like, can I handle one more thing? And so I am totally frightened. I admire you too. You’re on the other side in terms of making that decision.

    Susan: But I also see that art gets really bored and I can only do a certain task for so long with him. And he can only be so independent before I think like, damn, should we have a second kid? You know, it’s terrible. It’s terrible.

    Kate: Well, the [00:19:00] calculus is really interesting because I’ve observed that our, I mean, we should be for sure if we will make the decision for different reasons, but a lot of our peers it by which, I mean, like, you know I don’t know, I guess their classmates, et cetera are doing this whole you know, two under two.

    Kate: For those of you who don’t know what 2 under 2 means it literally is two children, both under the age of two, meaning they’re gapped less than two years apart. And it’s interesting because, you know, I’m sure we like there few different reasons, like age, right. We’re older when we have our kids. I think average, like the earliest of my friends having kids is like 30 and then a lot of them are just starting to have them now in their mid to late thirties.

    Kate: So yeah. I don’t know. It becomes different. It’s like a different calculus now for a lot of reasons. And it was, you know, a generation ago. Right. Makes it. Really hard. And then of course I think there are other stuff that we have that are the things that we haven’t talked about that affect other people.

    Kate: Like, you know, some people don’t get maternity leave where their maternity leaves really [00:20:00] short

    Kate: or, you know, they don’t have family near

    Kate: them. I mean, a lot of the things that weren’t questioned that were not an issue before, you know, like when we lived, you know, closer to our families or you know, things like that they’ve now become issues to consider.

    Kate: I feel like they’re just more to consider now that ever before. Right. And then there’s childcare costs. Right? So it’s, it’s like, it’s like the before and then, and then you have to think about, okay, like I have a friend who’s actually her son’s basically a week older than my daughter. And then she’s pregnant with her second.

    Kate: Who’s coming like a couple of weeks before mine. And you know, for a while she was thinks she’s like, I don’t know, like, you know, we had to run them some numbers to see like, basically if you could afford a second, I mean, you know, she and her husband have good jobs, but they live in Seattle, which is expensive.

    Kate: And that’s like a very real thing, which is kind of crazy. If you think about it, like, I have to run numbers to see if I can have a second child like, if it weren’t for the money, they would like a hundred percent, you know, not have like hesitated. I mean, they did like, kind of has it, but they decided they didn’t want a second, but, you know, and we’re just like, that sucks too, right.

    Kate: For people who [00:21:00] want to have a second, but then because the economies of having a kid are so expensive.

    Susan: Yeah. I used to be like, why do people move to the suburbs? Why do people. Away from the city, if they enjoyed the city. And now I’m like, oh, because daycare is like a mortgage daycare is like, I don’t know.

    Susan: I don’t even know like expensive car, car payments, like, like the fancy ones where I’m like, you could also have this instead, you know,

    Jeanette: it’s way more than any car payment. I know, like we know is not going to be forever. You know, are like, Isaiah will go to school if you know, public school.

    Jeanette: We think in a few years, and then Ruth is also going to get older and as kids get older, like even if they’re in daycare, the costs go down. So we know it’s not forever, but it’s a lot. Right. It’s


    Susan: lot. That’s, that’s significant. Yeah.

    Jeanette: And yeah, so, so it’s like, it’s definitely. Not [00:22:00] trivial. So yeah, like costs in terms of your body costs, in terms of your, your time to do other things your cost in terms of like just the financial costs of childcare, you know, so there’s a lot of things to consider.

    Jeanette: I think on the plus side it’s like, okay. Yeah, some kind of built-in relationship for you and for you and your partner, if you have one your, your first kid and it’s just like the fun of seeing what else comes out of the lottery. Like. I don’t know what else. I mean, just, you know, like the fun of having another person, right?

    Jeanette: Like another mini me

    Kate: who’s in does not look convinced she’s we’re missing.

    Susan: Well, I’m like, Hey, we’re kind of like the entire global society is like hurdling towards apocalyptic ending right now. Like there’s that pandemic and climate change, we’re totally effed and like, I don’t know, electric trucks are IPO [00:23:00] going.

    Susan: And I’m like, oh my God, there’s the space race. I’m like, why? Like, I feel like the world’s priorities are totally messed up and will my kids actually like what, w w what am I bringing them into?

    Jeanette: Yeah. I think that’s a totally fair question. Yeah. Yeah.

    Susan: Yeah. So I feel nervous about that. And then I’m like, Susan, go, go do like your volunteer board work, make yourself feel better.

    Susan: Like you’re helping society. And then I’m like, But art’s lonely.

    Jeanette: Yeah. Then there’s the, the uncertainty and that too is also that there’s no guarantee that your kids will have a close relationship. Right. I mean, like you alluded to you know, your sibling relationships can very much be up and down.

    Jeanette: And I experienced the same thing with my brother. Right. And we are very different people. And so, I mean, I think as a [00:24:00] parent, like, I, I, it’s something that I want to be conscious of, to cultivate a good relationship between them. Sometimes my mom will do this thing. Like where, like, if she wants Isaiah to eat something and he doesn’t want to eat it, she’s like, oh, I’m going to give it to Ruth.

    Susan: No.

    Jeanette: And she like tries to, like, I don’t think she really means it has any like ill intention, but it’s just like a very old school way of doing things where she’s like, oh, you don’t want to eat it. I’m going to give it to your sibling and , try to kind of create this competitive dynamic so that then like, he’ll want to eat it more.

    Jeanette: And I always have to be like, mom, , please don’t do that. Right. Because I, I mean, what are you gaining? , I don’t care if he takes one more bite of the chicken sausage, it’s much more important to me that they love each other. And they’re like half, they don’t feel this weird, competitive dynamic that we’re artificially producing.

    Susan: The way we will wait, wait, does she get.

    Jeanette: Yeah, I think she gets it more. And I think, like I said, it’s not anything like that she’s doing intentionally. She loves both of her, both [00:25:00] of our children and really wants the best for them, but it’s like part of this whole like approach and language that she’s just observed, like other people use.

    Jeanette: Right. In our, in the Korean American community and the Korean community. So but, but no, but I think she does get it and she’s stopped doing that, but but that’s all just to say, yes, it’s a built-in relationship, but it’s also not one that’s guaranteed that they’re going to be

    Jeanette: close. Right.

    Susan: At all, at all in their adult life, they could choose never to see each other. Yeah.

    Jeanette: Which would make me really sad.

    Susan: Yeah. Although, you

    Kate: know, I think we alluded to this in a previous episode that I guess, and then, you know, Jeanette, you just mentioned is that parents have a certain role in, in the dynamics between siblings, right?

    Kate: Cause Jeanette, I remember you mentioned last time that your parents treated you and your brother differently or in that, that may have affected your relationship. And Susan, I [00:26:00] don’t know if your elders, the elders in your family, like treat each of your siblings differently. And I don’t know if there’s any like competition or anything like Jeanette mentioned.

    Susan: Well, I’m I’m the youngest. And so I would say that the middle siblings are, are characteristically middle siblings in terms of how they view the world. And, and, and I like feeling like they had to. Not given as much attention or like we’re always the responsible ones to take care of me, you know? Like it’s like, I think being the oldest and the youngest, you kind of have like a better positioning in terms of how you feel about yourself.

    Susan: And then the middle siblings kind of feel different about stuff. So we don’t have a middle child on the, on the round table right now. So I just want to name that. Can I tell you one sick reason why I was like, oh, it would be kind of good to have kids. I read this one [00:27:00] study that was like, I dunno.

    Susan: I want you to guess it now. Can you just guess it?

    Jeanette: I was going to be like cannibalism

    Susan: because like, if you eat your own kind, then you’re less sick. Jeanette that’s sick.

    Jeanette: Okay. No,

    Susan: sorry, go ahead. Okay. My sick reason. That I read this study that said, once you’re with your adult children, once you grow up to become adults and your parents pass away, you can lean onto your siblings better.

    Susan: And as you age, your overall mental health is better because you have a support network to really carry you through. And I read that a long time ago and I was like, oh wow, that’s really important. Like, that’s longterm thinking. Right? And then I was sitting there going like, wait, this is like total bullshit because my mom passed away.

    Susan: And for the last 25 years, like we haven’t actually like been explicit [00:28:00] about talking about my mom’s death. I mean, yes, we’ve been there for each other a lot and we’re very present in each other’s lives, but it didn’t guarantee me the thing that I was hoping for, that I heard in the study. Right? Like if, if anything, the lack of being explicit about my mom’s death and grieving together has.

    Susan: Been worse for my mental health. Right. So it was this, it was, it backfired when I was like, but my where’s my siblings in on this. And I’m kinda like a thorn in their side about it. So yeah,

    Jeanette: like what if you didn’t have siblings, right. And this had

    Susan: happened

    Jeanette: with that. Would that have been worse or better?

    Susan: You always wonder, you know, if I didn’t have, maybe I wouldn’t feel so disappointed, but yeah, I can’t, I can’t, I can’t, there’s no control group. I can’t, I think I probably live parallel lives and like time is like all crazy and saline world. The world is sliding [00:29:00] doors and maybe I’ll run into my doppelganger one day.

    Susan: Like maybe that’s all a possibility, but like how could I ever tell you, how could I ever tell you that it could be better or worse? It is too hard to say.

    Jeanette: I guess I’m just highlighting that. Yes. Like there might be disappointments there, but like, you know, you did mention even just the fact of knowing there’s people who went through a very similar experience to you, right?

    Jeanette: They’re not you, but they also lost the same person who played the same role in their lives. Right.

    Jeanette: Like, I feel like

    Jeanette: that must be a huge source of comfort. Right. Even if it’s not enough or like, perfect.

    Susan: I mean, I’ve, I’ve never talked about this with my siblings, but yes, there’s a shared experience around that.

    Susan: And when my siblings get together, I do feel like we, we want a lot out of life. Like we work really hard for what we want. [00:30:00] I don’t know if that’s because my parents, our parents were Vietnamese refugees or because the void of my mother and like wanting to. Live up to my mother’s expectations. And because she’s gone, it’s like an impossible thing, but you keep trying for it anyways, like unclear.

    Susan: Yeah. Before,

    Jeanette: I mean, I feel like with my brother, even though, like I said, we’re very different people and I wouldn’t, I think our relationship has, has gotten better, but we’re not super duper close, but I do think that there’s this sense

    Jeanette: of

    Jeanette: He’s like the person closest to knowing like what it was like to grow up with my parents.

    Jeanette: Right. And what it was like, like being in that family as kids we played different roles, but, but still, I think that that’s still kind of a powerful there’s some comfort. There’s some comfort there, I think.

    Susan: Yeah, totally. Okay. My other sick reason for having a child is Is that [00:31:00] if one of your kid dies, you at least have another kid.

    Susan: Like Marvin, I have talked about that. And like, and then, and then I go back and then I say, wait a minute, that’s messed up because a living kid will always have a sense of guilt. And also that they, that they’re never gonna, you know, like there’s something that, who will benefit from that, you know, like, do the parents feel better or are they always feeling remorseful?

    Susan: Like, I don’t know that argument doesn’t work for me. As someone who has lost someone at a very young age, like I’m, I’m scared of dying too young and art, not having a mom. And I’m also stared. If we lose art, like as every day he gets older, I get more attached to him. Like, I’m like, this guy’s really cool.

    Susan: I like him a lot. And, and the idea of losing him, like stay before he turns, I don’t know, 21 or whatever, that would be really devastating. Yeah. So I don’t know. I I’m kind of obsessed with death. So I think about death a lot. [00:32:00] Did that ever cross your minds of like, if we have to, if one dies at least

    Kate: spares, they say,

    Susan: well,

    Kate: it’s like, just in case, right? Cause like, you know, oh, like

    Susan: two dudes.

    Jeanette: I don’t have to be dudes anymore. The heir and the spare. You always want somebody to be able to take the crown.

    Susan: Okay. So. You’re going to have a girl you’re not going to have a spare. Do you want, well, you know, it’s interesting,

    Kate: you mentioned that cause it got me thinking, so I actually have thought about this, although not explicitly in the context of myself having a second kid, but you know back in 2008, there was this really awful earthquake that struck my home province of Sichuan and, and so many people died.

    Kate: And one of the saddest things about it was that a lot of children died because the buildings, the schools they were in were really [00:33:00] poorly constructed as a result of corruption and other things. And I mean, like it was mostly a more rural areas or smaller towns. And I just remember seeing the pictures of parents who had lost their one and only, and they were so devastated, you know, and they didn’t have a choice right at the time.

    Kate: Now China’s policy has really gotten much more generous about having one, even sorry, two, even three kids. But at the time, you know, most of these people didn’t have. Okay. Calling it a spirit, but like a second kid, you know, and I remember reading about how some of these families they had, they literally started from scratch.

    Kate: Like some of their kids were 10 and, you know, they decided to have another. And I was like, you know, I remember thinking really distinctly at the time. Gosh, I mean, I was like, what, like 22, 23. So I was just thinking, oh, I guess it is nice to have more than one kid, but I mean, what are the chances? Right.

    Kate: And then you can also imagine all the iterations of like, you know, even if you had two kids, there’s some people who, you know, I’ve read stories of parents who sink so deeply into their own grief. They don’t think [00:34:00] about their second child, right. Or the first child or the child that passes away. It always becomes its shadow.

    Kate: And I mean, there’s so many iterations it’s sort of like, but I can understand that. I don’t think it’s that kind of crazy. I think you know, it, it passed, it passed from my mind at some point to that, you know, I mean, obviously you never want these things to happen, but it, it, it has happened to people and, you know, unfortunately that case, a lot of them didn’t have the choice to have a second.

    Kate: Before their first kid passed away. But anyway,

    Jeanette: yeah, a funny story related to this, please, just to lift the mood will live the mood. So w when Jake and I were younger, this was pre-kids. We were throwing a goodbye party to this family from our church who were going to move away and they’re older and they had.

    Jeanette: The oldest one, I think at the time it was like probably like 10 and then the second one was like eight and they had a young boy who was like maybe three or four and I’m like, we are having the party. And then I turned around and I start yelling. [00:35:00] His name let’s say his name was let’s just call him Ben.

    Jeanette: And I

    Susan: was like,

    Jeanette: because I could see that this little boy had taken the kitchen knife that we were using to cut the cake with. And he was like, licking. Right. And so I was trying to get his attention. So he would just freeze. And then his parents look over and they’re kind of like, oh, well, it’s good that we have three.

    Jeanette: I mean, which was obviously like a joke, but you know, kind of, I thought I was thinking about that as we were talking about this. Right. I mean, w and I feel like it also like releases other thing, which is, you know, just, maybe it’s not as much of an issue when you have. Too, although I definitely still feel it like, but, but as you have, like, if you decide to, if you have more kids than that, then it’s kind of like how much attention and energy do you actually have to really invest in each kid maybe in the way that you would want to.

    Jeanette: Right. Cause like, I mean, I [00:36:00] think

    Jeanette: even with two

    Jeanette: kids, I still feel that like, you know, maybe like old-school people used to have like 10 kids, you know, like my grandparents were old. Many of them were like one of seven, one of eight, but you know, the way that I can’t imagine, like if I had eight kids, like, I don’t even think I’m going to remember all of their names or like their birthdays.

    Jeanette: I mean, I just, I don’t have like enough mental space for that.

    Susan: I sometimes I think I’m just like, I suffer from too much perfectionism and that puts me in my own fear because like my parents did not have that much money coming to America, that much money as in like close to zero. Right as Vietnamese boat people, and they had four kids and this is top and center to me right now because I’m working on my memoir.

    Susan: I’m, I’m really writing stories about before my mom died. And it’s, it’s very obvious in the writing that I like craved her attention so much that when I got it, I was [00:37:00] very nervous. Like, like it, it made me like, it was, it was few moments. Like she forced me, she forced, she gave me and my sister of the very strong option to go to modeling school, which was above, located above our nail salon.

    Susan: And the times that you would come to watch us on the catwalk during our show, I got so nervous. Like, I didn’t know how to perform. Like, I, it, it made me too anxious because I got so little attention, you know, and then, but it’s like, we’re all somewhat functional human beings now as adults, like, like she did not have time for us

    Susan: and we didn’t have that much money. And now I’m thinking about my own life. I have much more time. I have, I have much more money than my parents had at the time. So what am I so afraid of? Like, I keep thinking, like, I’m going to mess this up big time. I’m not going to do it the way I want to. So I should like, not even do it.

    Susan: And, [00:38:00] and it’s just like, wow, it’s like such a shifted generational thinking. Right. Which was maybe back then for them. They didn’t, I think maybe I was an accident. Like maybe they didn’t have birth control or I don’t know their access to healthcare when they first moved here. But like, they, they, they, they made different choices.

    Susan: They had different options and like here it’s like, it technically should be easier for me. So why am I getting so hung up on, well, it’s not gonna be. I’m not going to provide them though with the life that I want to give him. So we’re not going to have another, but it’s like, actually, like my life is so much easier than the life that they had.

    Susan: So like, I don’t know. I think part of me was like, I should woman up, you know? And then the other part of me is like climate change. Like the world’s going to shit. We’re like being hurdled into like a meteor like don’t Susan, you know, or like volunteer or something, you know? So I just want to put that out there, which is like, is it really that much harder to have more [00:39:00] kids?

    Susan: Like, am I just so fixated on being a certain type of person that I will never be? I don’t know. Kate, am I making any sense here?

    Kate: Yeah, I mean, I think I remember my mom made a comment while I was. Pregnant still. And she was like, oh man, things are so much harder for you guys say she’s like, ignorance is bliss.

    Kate: She was like, I didn’t know all this stuff. I think that’s part of it. Right. Is that at least, you know, for my mom, her generation in China, just, they didn’t know a lot of things. You just kind of like, you could bet you kind of follow the natural course,

    Kate: but also the social pressures

    Kate: were different. You know, the social considerations were different.

    Kate: You know, my parents infamously sent me off to boarding school when I was three. You know what I mean? It’s like what? I do that to my kid. No, but you know, my parents didn’t know. Child development, child, psychology attachment, blah, blah, blah, all this stuff at the time. So it’s interesting because now, you know, yes, we have more resources than our parents.

    Kate: Yes. In many ways we don’t have to struggle in the same way our parents did, [00:40:00] but we struggle in a different way. I’m not trying to compare like one’s better over the other. Right. But they’re different pressures, right? Their social media pressures, their friend pressures, their social pressures. There’s I mean, cost of change for sure.

    Kate: Right. My parents could hire, you know, a country village nanny at like barely any costs in the 1980s in China. And then like, Tiny’s nannies here, go for 25, 20 $8 an hour, you know? And so I think there are just a lot of differences. So, and I don’t know if I’m, you know, w w w who are we to say that our parents, if they live today, would’ve made the same decisions, right.

    Kate: About having kids as they did back then hard to say, you know, it’s really hard to, to, to say that. But I did have a question actually for Jeanette, because we were talking something, oh, we were talking about prefer, you know, preferential treatment, or like not getting enough attention from parents. I see often among our generation, you know people who have one kid in they’re thinking about having a second or pregnant with a second, one of the concerns.

    Kate: Is how do I love [00:41:00] another child the same as I love my first? Or how do I not succumb to like a favoritism or to, you know, I think there’s a lot of concerns. The moms, especially around this, I’m curious like Jeanette, you know how, yeah. I mean, how have you thought, like, was that a concern for you before Ruth came and then how, how do you, how are your emotions your affections, your attention, you know, divided among your two kids?

    Jeanette: Yeah. No, I definitely felt that and when I was pregnant I was , so in love with our first child that I was kind of like, how will I love our second kid as much as I love Isaiah. I mean, it sounds so like. Sentimental and everything, but I actually thought that a lot, that thought would just enter into my mind.

    Jeanette: But then Ruth came and you know, I shouldn’t have worried because she just is her own [00:42:00] person and I just , love her so much. And and yeah, I think that’s part of, what’s been like this huge joy, right? Just the way your first child came and like, they just took totally surprised you with who they are and how much you , just loves them.

    Jeanette: I think the same thing just happened with our second kid and it just like, if

    Jeanette: that surprise again and I, I don’t have a favorite. Sometimes like I kind of think like, yeah, yeah. I D and I, I don’t, I really don’t have one. And even if I did, I wouldn’t tell you,

    Susan: I was like public domain girl.

    Susan: And

    Jeanette: And I think in terms of attention for one versus the other, I honestly flip-flop by time of day and the day, I’m kind of like, am I giving one too much attention? Am I giving the other too much attention? It’s like kind of like a constant struggle that I feel inside, even though I feel like both of them get enough attention from us.

    Jeanette: [00:43:00] But for example, in the mornings, Isaiah, my older side is more demanding. He’s very demanding that I, you know, I brush his teeth and , he wants to do things a certain way. And maybe because my daughter is less verbal, right? Often my husband’s busy in the morning, so he’ll come and he’ll see their face.

    Jeanette: But. My mom normally helps me get them ready for school. So like, my mom is, you know, more in charge of Ruth, the baby, so that I feel , kind of bad about that because , I’m like, is she not getting enough mommy time in the morning? But then other times of the day, afterschool when they’re home and we’re playing, you know, like, because she’s younger and she does all these things, a lot of them for the first time, you know, sometimes I’m like, oh, maybe I’m giving too

    Jeanette: much attention to Ruth.

    Jeanette: Right. Like and then Isaiah does like,

    Jeanette: he, he, he never, he almost never

    Jeanette: takes any like he does, he never acts jealous towards Ruth but then he will do things like if she is doing something babyish that gets attention, like he’ll do the same thing, you [00:44:00] know? Like she’ll make the sign for please, which is so cute because she just rubs her belly, which is like this little baby Buddha.

    Jeanette: And, and then we’re like, oh yeah, it’s so cute and then , Isaiah will do the same thing, even though, you know, clearly he knows how to just say, please. So there’s dynamics like that. So, yeah, I don’t know if it’ll ever go away, but I constantly feel this need to be aware of how much attention I’m giving to each kid and kind of making sure that they both feel like they’re getting adequate amount of parental attention and affection.

    Kate: Well, so I’m going to make a terrible husband going to laugh at me because I always accused him of doing this. I’m going to give a terrible example. I’m probably offend some people, but Hey, so, you know, we have a dog, right? So we got our dog. It’s like, you know, a lot of people, the dog is like the starter child.

    Kate: So I love our dog. Like she picked me cause she sniffed my crotch of all the puppies. She came up to me and she slipped my crotch and I was like, that’s the one? And you know, like she, she went, my [00:45:00] husband has gone during like most of the lack of a letter of a pregnancy on business trips. Or she was just with me all the time.

    Kate: And I remember thinking, cause you know, as I mentioned before, I don’t like love kids. And I was like, Hm, I don’t know. Babies are kind of ugly. And so I was just like looking at her, my dog and being like, I don’t know if I can love anything as much as I love this dog. I mean, I guess I live with my husband, but it’s kind of different.

    Kate: I know. Right, Susan, I see your eyes. I’m like, who is this crazy person? I’m like a duck. You don’t have, people are cat ladies. Dog lady, but like the dog version of a cat lady anyway,

    Susan: and then,

    Kate: you know, my daughter was born. I was like, oh, okay. It’s, it’s very different. I mean, okay. Obviously there’s a baby human, my child and then my dog child.

    Kate: And obviously I know they’re very different, but you know, and then if they both actually like kind of spar for my attention which is really funny and I realized that, you know, I still love my dog a lot. And I just tried to give her more attention when, you know, my daughter is a daughter is not around, but I guess what I’m trying to say is, I don’t know, maybe I’ve been [00:46:00] practicing on the dog because I do wonder that, right?

    Kate: Like I like, like you to be very sentimental. Jeanette, I, I look at my daughter, I’m like, Ooh, I love her so much. How is it possible for me to love another human creature? You know, this much. And so, but I guess, you know, you’re, perspective reminds me that it’s also going to be very cheesy, but there’s an infant in us, I guess there is a certain infinite capacity for love.

    Kate: Right. And I think that’s something that maybe kids can teach you because you always think like, oh, you know, I, how can I love something more than this? Or as much as you can’t imagine, right. When you only have one, but then two comes along and then I don’t know, three, maybe, I don’t know, parents of three, you can chime in on this, but you just kind of feel like it’s, it becomes more infinite or boundless every time, which is

    Kate: very sweet.

    Susan: Yeah. I’m starting to think like, okay, maybe this is a reason. This is a new reason for me for a second child, is that like we’re jaded and scarred [00:47:00] AF at this point, right. As in our thirties. And it’s probably only going to get worse. And it’s like, when you’re around these babies, once you get to a certain age of being responsive, they.

    Susan: It’s their purity of love, the unconditional of it. Like the, the innocence of it is so beautiful. It’s like heart melting, right? And it, and like it creates more space for us to keep practicing that capacity of love for adults who are not so graceful and gracious in their love. You know, like, I, I think there’s something about love as this like infinite pool of energy and, and source for good in that those, the children remind us of that and they give it to us and it helps us circulate our ability and capacity to love when other people are mean.

    Susan: And I was thinking a lot about along these lines in the last year about because you don’t have a lot of Metro. [00:48:00] Most of my closest friends are single. Or like not married in depth. Like don’t have kids like the girlfriends that I’m closest to. And they’ll ask me, they’re like, oh, you know, why have kids like, what’s so great about having kids.

    Susan: I know we talked about this on another episode, but I think it’s also relevant to this one. And I think about it in terms of I mean, I don’t want to say that kids are really great way to really like improve yourself, but in a way you you know, you’re like, as we talked about our past episodes, you you’re forced to confront a lot of things about yourself and then your relationship with, you know, all their people, your parents, your in-laws your siblings, your partner.

    Susan: And it’s not like a negative thing necessarily, right. Because. Human beings. We also have a great capacity to grow. And I, and I know there’s a lot of arguments with people who, you know, choose to be happily child-free that they can grow in other ways. And that’s really great. But I do think actually, you know, if you are able to, you know, if you’re interested in how the resources, et cetera, physically able to, you [00:49:00] know, have a child, it is a way in which you just completely transform as a person.

    Susan: And I don’t mean like you become a mommy or a daddy. I just mean like you, you know, Jeanette, you, Susan, you see me, Kate. I like, if I’m in this shape, I’m just like stretching and growing and it’s, it’s really beautiful if you think about it because in what other circumstance have we, do we have the opportunity.

    Susan: To evolve,

    Kate: to evolve in this way as an individual in such a deep, deep way and very meaningful, very significant. And that affects all of our relationships

    Susan: around us. Right? Yeah. Like maybe the last major time you got to do that was maybe in college. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Cause then you go after you’re done with college, you go back to your high school friends, some or acquaintances and they’re like, you can, you can be totally different and that’s like a real normal thing, which is like, yeah, they just, they just grew into who they were.

    Susan: And in kids, kids force you to do that. [00:50:00] They force you to do that.

    Jeanette: Yeah. But you know, I think that there’s a lot of cost to that right. To, to, to this regimen. So, I mean, I think that I, it’s a really personal choice. It’s

    Jeanette: It’s kind

    Jeanette: of like. You know, having your first kid or getting married, like it’s kind of choosing to go on this long journey through this unknown forest.

    Jeanette: Right. And you know, it’s going to change you. It’s a, you know, it’s going to grow you, but nobody can really force you to do it. Right. Like you have to weigh the costs and the potential benefit for yourself and, and make the choice. So really for me, like, there’s not that we’re saying that there’s any judgment, but like, just to iterate, like there’s no judgment whether you choose to have a kid at all or have a second kid or more,

    Susan: or, I mean, you know, but Daniel Kahnemann study is [00:51:00] like, this is going to be the worst, 18 years for your marriage in terms of relationship unhappiness.

    Susan: Like this is the peak is when you’re having these kids. Would you like to forego that? That sounds nice. Would you like your libido? Not the totally. Yeah. Or like your body would be like totally messed up. Yeah. You know, or it’s just, ah, and, and the financial freedom of not having to pay, like raise them in daycare and then college, whatever the state of college is going to be in the next 20 years, who knows, maybe it’s all like, just all you need is a VR headset.

    Susan: And like, you’re like living this life, like in Wally, who knows? I don’t know. I don’t know.

    Susan: Well, I don’t know, ladies, I still haven’t pulled out my IUD. This conversation has not gotten Nita to schedule an appointment yet

    Kate: thing where it’s like, I think people face with the same considerations. People make very different [00:52:00] decisions because different things matter to them. And I think that’s the thing is that you, you know want to make the decision that makes sense.

    Kate: For you. And I say that because you know, this is hearkening back to my comment earlier about how a lot of our peers are doing like the 2 under 2 and I know this sounds very weird. I actually was thinking about it a lot. But there is like a, for me at least. And I wonder if any of the other, any other listeners feel this way, there’s like this weird social pressure, right?

    Kate: Because here all these other women, our age, you know, they have their first kid. Let’s say I have a bunch of friends who had the first kid around the same time, and then, you know, and then everybody starts talking about having a second kid. And I feel like, I know this sounds weird because it’s such a momentous decision to feel pressured into or to feel pressure.

    Kate: But I did feel like this pressure, you know, this isn’t, I don’t, I mean, you must be feeling it now, too. Right. But I was

    Susan: like, oh my God. And

    Kate: also weirdly FOMO, like, you know, all the shit that goes into being pregnant and having a baby, but like, I’m a competitive [00:53:00] person in some really whack ways. And this is one of them where I was just.

    Kate: She’s pregnant already. What the fuck? Her first kid is only like 12 months, but at the same time, I was like, oh my God, I don’t want to be pregnant again. You know, it’s like, you can hold those feelings both at the same time. And I think I want to give people permission to feel that way, because when I was feeling, I was like, I must be crazy.

    Kate: I’m a crazy bitch. What is wrong with me? But like, I think that is this, you know, especially in this world of like crazy social media and people are like talking about this and I think unique characteristic of our generation, you know, people having kids when they’re older. And so you have to kind of like, I don’t know, different considerations, but that’s, there is this like

    Kate: weird pressure.

    Kate: Like even if

    Kate: you feel like I don’t want to, or I am not ready, but then like, you’re just like, ah, but oh, you know?

    Susan: Oh yeah,

    Kate: you felt that way. But I feel really weird saying that.

    Susan: Well, I’m glad you said it Kate. Cause I’ve been feeling it because. Yeah, I don’t, if I’m going to, if we’re really going to have a sick kid, I want to [00:54:00] jump on that train.

    Susan: I want to jump on that train because you know what? This train is, people it’s like, what you do on the weekends for a long time, which is play dates, you know, or you only have like a certain radius of, of movement that you can have outside of your house before it’s nap time. You know, like you, you have to make all these schedule optimizations all the time and then balance with your partner and all this.

    Susan: And then there’s the resource sharing of like certain types of toys or certain types of clothes. Like do, if I want to be a part of the cohort, I joined the cohort now, unfortunately now is it possible to change my mind in like five years? That was her other love of her life, her dog

    Susan: Like do am that there, there is a, there is a resource cost to the FOMO, which is the cohort we’ll move on without. And then if you bring your kid again, yes. You’ll make adjustments. Yes. You’ll be on buy nothing groups. Yes. It’ll work [00:55:00] out. But right now it’s this very interesting window of time where you can be like, Hey, that was a cute frozen cake topper.

    Susan: Can I use it at my birthday party? And it makes complete sense, Pete, the cat, whatever it is, you know, like there is, there is something very nice to have this shared stuff or like the kids playing and it’s like, I’m drinking a martini, but the kids are playing and they’re all like age appropriate toys right now.

    Susan: But me and the mom can just have our moment and everyone’s having their moment and it’s like gonna be the optimal situation. So like there’s FOMO there. There’s the FOMO of like, I beat up my body. I might as well beat it up so that again, so that like, like really fast so that, so then I can finally.

    Susan: Right. Get in shape afterwards. Instead of being like, like, do you, I can zip up my jeans now. Like these trendy jeans, like they have holes in them on purpose. Like I’ve never really worn them, [00:56:00] but I was like, I have these jeans and I bought them before I was pregnant and I can button them up now. And I’m like, are you kidding me?

    Susan: Like, so all over

    Kate: again, like, damn,

    Susan: you know.

    Jeanette: Yeah. I definitely have this. I had that moment when Ruth turned a one, my younger one and I, you know, I put away all my maternity clothes. And I put it in the Goodwill pile. And , there was just like a sense of relief . Right. Like I’m, I’m done with that.

    Jeanette: Like that stage of my life is over, you know, and yeah, just this feeling like

    Jeanette: I started completely. That was completely my experience. I I’m just like I I’m done. And like, I’m glad I did it, but it was really hard and it’s

    Jeanette: done.

    Susan: Oh man, it’s complicated. It’s really complicated. [00:57:00] Yeah. Kate, when are you due?

    Kate: And of end of March. Yeah. So it’s another few months of freedom. I know. I never say freedom having one kid already, but you know, it’s always easier when they’re inside and not outside, so yeah,

    Susan: really to freedom relative. It’s all, it’s all relative.

    Jeanette: Yeah. Have you and Nirav, talk through

    Jeanette: just any

    Jeanette: changes in your

    Jeanette: household

    Jeanette: rhythms or responsibilities

    Jeanette: once number two comes?

    Kate: Yeah, I think, you know, that’s a really good question. So we’re, we’re very lucky. We’re getting our my postpartum Chinese nanny’s coming again. She’s staying for two months.

    Kate: And so I think that will be really nice because it’ll give me a nice time of transition to spend more time with you know, my older daughter because I don’t think, I think it can be hard on some kids having a [00:58:00] second sibling. And then I think like after, you know, we’ll have to start planning for that dynamic Like closer.

    Kate: Yeah. I think we’ll kind of figure out how things are, because I, I realized, like, I think it’s like every baby is so different. I just, I don’t know how this one is going to be. Like, our daughter was a relatively, I would say she was like, not really hard to take care of, but you know, we’ve met friends who have had kids who have various, like, you know, just not serious issues that they’re, you know, like colic or there’s reflux or things like that.

    Kate: And I think just kind of see how this one, like take the first month to see how this one is, and then find a, find like a rhythm. I do have to work during part of my maternity leave though. Kind of like, like before, which is it’s fine. I mean, it’s good that the nanny will be living with us, but yeah, that’s also

    Kate: another

    Kate: thing.

    Jeanette: So I have to like scare folks, you know, from having a second kid. That’s not my intention, but just so that folks kind of. Go into what their eyes wide [00:59:00] open. I mean, all kinds of advice that you get from your, for your first kid, like, oh, nap when your kid is napping . It just doesn’t apply when you have a toddler and the baby, right.

    Jeanette: It’s like when the baby’s napping okay. That’s toddlers, like playtime you know, and so just the things that you learned to make your life more manageable with one kid, you have to rethink them. When you have a

    Jeanette: second, you know,

    Jeanette: and just prepare for there to be less time.

    Jeanette: But, but, you know, I, I think that as the kids get older, like I said, it does get a little easier and I do see my kids playing with each other, which is wonderful. That that is great.

    Susan: So what, what, what do you think it is? It’s like by the time both of them are at least two or three, you’d be much more sane or Nope.

    Susan: It’s when they’re all at least in kindergarten.

    Jeanette: I think by the time Ruth is three, life will be much more manageable. I have heard [01:00:00] like parents of much older kids say, you know, when their youngest turned four it’s like, they felt like they came out of a cave that they didn’t even know they were in. You know?

    Jeanette: So I think that, you know, and

    Jeanette: Isaiah is almost four and he’s still needs a lot from us, but it’s just different. He needs different things from us and it is overall easier. We can talk to him. We can reason with him, he can do more things on his own. And I could see, like with Ruth is his age.

    Jeanette: Like it would be totally different and probably much easier.

    Kate: Friends told my husband that things just turn a total corner when the youngest kid is like five, because they’re able to basically start showering independently, like doing a bunch of stuff independently. Yeah. So,

    Jeanette: but yeah, like everything involved with parenting, I feel, you know, everything is so

    Jeanette: painfully

    Jeanette: long, it’s like just long enough that it feels like it’s never going to end [01:01:00] and it it’s long enough that it’ll fundamentally change you and then it will be over, you know?

    Jeanette: And then it’ll be like the next thing I feel like every stage of child rearing has been like that for me, which is like, you know, my son is in a train stage and he only wants to play trains every day. And the whole train story is about two trains almost bumping into each other and going screech, you know?

    Jeanette: And he just did that like every night for. Like months. And I was like, okay, he’s just going to be a train guy and we’re just going to do trains forever. And then after we decided to just , go all in and invest in the whole, like more trains. He’s like, okay, I’m done with trains.

    Susan: Spider-Man yeah. Like now I’m really, into Spider-Man.

    Jeanette: And then we were in a Spiderman stage for a long time. I wrote like, this was never going to be over. We’re only going to be watching spidey and his amazing friends forever. And and then recently he’s kind of like, he’s kind of like, oh, I don’t want to watch that anymore.

    Jeanette: You know? I feel like he’s [01:02:00] reassessing what he’s into now. But every stage just feel so long and,

    Jeanette: and a little painful,

    Jeanette: but then, but then, but then.

    Kate: This

    Kate: gives me so much relief because we were in a baby shark stage. I want to fucking blow my brains out.

    Kate: So actually, Jeanette, you’re giving me a lot of relief because I know that on the horizon, there was a baby shark free future. And that’s great. You know, they’re, the phases are long, but they’re always changing. So yeah. See you on your toes.

    Jeanette: Yep. Have hope there will be a baby shark free future. Oh my God.

    Jeanette: The next in the next few months,

    Susan: I want her 16th birthday party to be baby, baby shark, baby, baby shark prom. Sure. Everyone heard the shark week. Okay. Are you. Are you ready for lightning round [01:03:00] inside thoughts? Yeah. Sure. Okay. This is where I put up a prop say mine, and then we’re going to go in the order of me, Kate, Jeanette.

    Susan: Cause it’s alphabetical order. Okay. What you’ve all been waiting for? Wait, actually, no, this is

    Kate: in alphabetical order should be K the J

    Susan: K S oh, but don’t you want to hear my examples? So it gives you a little time to think about your example or you want to hear mine at the end,

    Susan: your Hollywood crush. You are most embarrassed by now. Think about the character in which they play a thing. You’re your fictional Hollywood crush. Okay. Mine. You mean a character? Not

    Kate: the actor.

    Susan: Yeah. Yeah. Right. You can give me either one. You can give me either one real life actor that you have a very embarrassing crush on.

    Susan: Like you, you’re embarrassed to tell people about it or their fictional character where you’re like, kind of ashamed, but it’s kind of hot. So my embarrassing Hollywood crush is Kendall [01:04:00] Roy from succession. Kate, is he the old guy? No, he’s not the old disk guy. He’s the oldest son where like, during the fifth, the like the birthday party, he was like L to the old G and he’s like, it’s terrible.

    Susan: It’s like, it’s like, it’s like uncomfortable, but I find it kind of. Kate. How

    Kate: about a past crush? Cause it’s also pretty embarrassing. You remember lawn like the animated Milan, our kids, the dragon. What is it when you like, are in love with that? No, no, no. That’s the guy, the general,

    Susan: what’s his name?

    Kate: Who’s the good guy.

    Kate: The handsome one that Milan has a crush on. I

    Susan: don’t know. I made you


    Kate: animated character.

    Jeanette: I actually almost bought the Barbie, like the male. I forget

    Kate: his name, but like

    Susan: that is totally embarrassing,

    Kate: you know? And I guess how old I was, that’s an embarrassing thing. I was like 16

    Susan: Jeanette, most embarrassing Hollywood crush.

    Jeanette: Oh, I was [01:05:00] on this streak where I was watching some movies with, I don’t even remember his name, but I think he’s Fergie’s husband. He’s an actor he’s like, kind of like a,

    Kate: oh, you mean the Dan, the singer from not the singer Fergie.

    Jeanette: Yeah.

    Susan: I heard Furby and I was like, we’re going to go near

    Jeanette: no, no. But but she’s really cute. So I kind of was like on this thing where I’m like, oh yeah, he’s kinda, who’s

    Kate: her husband, Josh.

    Susan: Why is he, is he like, is he just like a dude? Like, he’s

    Jeanette: He’s not a particularly good actor. I mean, it’s just like the only thing about him.

    Jeanette: It’s like, he was like,

    Susan: Oh, yeah.

    Kate: Oh, that’s that arrow? That’s a terrible here a little bit.

    Susan: You gets defending her crush,

    Kate: but this is definitely not a person I would have. I would have thought more like Jeanette would have like an Edward Norton

    Susan: kind of crushed, you know? Oh my God. I was totally into him. [01:06:00] Okay. Okay.

    Jeanette: That is a really bad picture of, of that guy.

    Jeanette: On also, apparently they’re divorced now anyway. Okay. Next.

    Susan: Okay. So he’s available. Okay. The last, the last thing that you cooked and impressed people with. So there was a recipe from smitten kitchen. It was like a spinach cheese Stratta egg bake kind of thing. My friend made it at her amazing kids’ birthday party.

    Susan: I was so jealous. I got the recipe. And then now people are jealous of me, Kate. Wow.

    Kate: I’m smitten. Kitchen is so awesome. Cause mine is smitten kitchen too. I’ve made these like old fashioned dinner rolls for her recipe. I mean, she’s just so good. Nothing turns out badly if you make

    Kate: her shit, but it’s like, it’s like, it’s like, oh, it’s so easy.

    Kate: It’s not to me. It’s not that easy, but it turned out good. That’s

    Kate: when you want to have mine also, it might also turn out good. And people were very in love with my dinner rolls. Yeah.

    Susan: Ooh. You rolling girl? Yeah. I [01:07:00] love how you roll Jeanette.

    Jeanette: I made a black Cod miso marinade recipe. Apparently you have some like no

    Jeanette: boost.

    Susan: Is that a 48 hour marinade? Yeah. Yeah. It’s

    Jeanette: A two to three-day marinade. Miso and mirin it and sake and a little sugar and black Cod. It’s really easy, but it’s really good. And yeah, and then we’ve bought this black Cod from the fishermen’s market for $50, but then I was like, oh, that’s kind of expensive.

    Jeanette: But then you think about eating that at a restaurant and you’re just like, I would get one six of this for $50. So anyway, that’s the last thing that I

    Jeanette: made that, that seems really

    Jeanette: fancy, you know, but it is actually really simple and that’s really, oh, yummy

    Susan: the color on that. And then also like the fact that like Cod is so hard to mess up.

    Susan: Cause it’s so fatty. It’s like, I love it. I love it. Okay.

    Kate: We’ll post that. We’ll post the links, the recipes.

    Susan: And like, if you want to do a cheat, which I would do, I would go to [01:08:00] our local Japanese grocery store Uwajimaya and they have their family recipe already marinated. And you can buy that as well.

    Susan: Okay. Skill. You’d like to learn that isn’t really useful, but damn you want to learn it? Mine is Moonwalking okay.

    Kate: Oh, like I was going to say knitting, but then I realized it’s really

    Susan: useful. I really tell

    Kate: us, I’m just like, really bad with like sewing and knitting. And I’m just like always envy people who are just like clicking away and they’re not even looking at their hands.

    Kate: They’re just like this. I’m just like,

    Susan: I want to do that. Yeah. You want to be a stitch and it’s not even

    Kate: to beat, make stuff. It’s just like to go like this

    Susan: and to

    Kate: have people be like, whoa, so good.

    Susan: Okay. I mean, it’s like how many beanies can you have still you’d like to learn?

    Jeanette: That’s completely useless.

    Jeanette: I was going to say sewing because Kate kind of took that one. So I will say [01:09:00] like skateboarding. No, no salsa dancing. Well, I already

    Jeanette: know how to salsa dance, but I would love to, , if I had all the time in the world, then I would just spend. Five-year salsa dancing and just becoming a master

    Jeanette: salsa dancer.

    Susan: Oh my God. Like, is your secret fantasy to be on dancing with the stars?

    Jeanette: No, I don’t like performing. I just like dancing. I like dancing for myself.

    Susan: Typical. Okay. Lasting. The book your kid is currently obsessed with mine is Bath Bath Bath.

    Susan: Well,

    Kate: it’s just one page in a book count cause she doesn’t want to read any of the other pages that it’s just the one page. So we bought her book called You are the Biggest is to get her ready for like being a big sister. And it’s like these two little Fox siblings, but there’s one page and they’re like these balls hanging from the tree and then she’ll go

    Kate: ball

    Kate: for like 10 minutes.

    Kate: I’m like, I don’t understand. But that’s her favorite book? Right?

    Jeanette: Isaiah’s favorite book [01:10:00] is an elephant

    Jeanette: and Piggie book right now called we are in a book

    Jeanette: where

    Jeanette: it’s like a very mad,

    Jeanette: very meta thing where the characters realize they are in a book. Oh my God. It thinks it’s hilarious and super funny.

    Jeanette: And Ruth’s favorite book is a pig a board book called whistle for Willy where she likes to just point out all the dogs. Yeah. So kind of somewhat analogous to what Raya is doing. She just likes to flip through the pages and like point out dogs

    Susan: and that’s all you have for inside thoughts.

    Jeanette: we hope you found something helpful, reassuring or interesting in this episode of model minority moms. If you enjoyed the episode, please help us spread the word by texting a friend about our show or leave us a review on apple podcasts. If you want to connect with us, please visit our website. Add model minority, or follow us on Instagram, where we love receiving messages from our listeners.[01:11:00]