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    Kate: [00:00:00] I think this is really important for people who are listening to this, that probably a lot of people are like this. Right. They seem like they have all their stuff together, outside that, you know, there’s just the pressure to look perfect, everything, you know, your career, woman, mom, whatever, whatever. And, but there are cracks. And I think it’s nice now that more people are being open about how everybody has a fucking crack or more. And it’s okay.

    Kate: Welcome to model minority moms, where we talk about the complicated meaning of success in career, family and life.

    Kate: I’m Kate Wong,

    Susan: Jeanette park, and Susan.

    Kate: Harvard classmates and Asian-American working moms to Little’s who get real about the pressures of fitting in while standing out.

    Susan: Today, we are talking about something that everyone seems to talk about, but sometimes it’s very hard to deal with and that’s mental health. We’re type a people we’re super ambitious. And [00:01:00] sometimes being so in our heads can kick us in the butt.

    Susan: And I wanted to start off today’s episode talking about a valley I was in. So I’m a writer, I’m an artist. And I go through a lot of ups and downs with my work. And two weeks ago I was in a down place. Everything I was writing was terrible. I felt like I wasn’t hitting any of my goals and not only that, I I didn’t want to do anything.

    Susan: And I started to feel like I was a really bad mom. And so I tell Marvin, like, I can almost like feel when a depression wave is about to come. Like, I sense that something big is happening. And then I, I, I have no emotion and I have no desire for anything. And I I’m telling Marvin I’m like, Marvin, I need help.

    Susan: I need help right now. And then, and then I just find myself on the couch and, and I just, I have no words. I have no feelings, I have no words and I have nothing and I have nothing for art, [00:02:00] my son. And that’s when it kind of gets scary because now before, when I had these depressive spells, it was just me emoting to my husband.

    Susan: But now there’s like this little tiny human that actually needs me. And, and that’s where I find that it feels really sad and scary. And I was in the spell for a few days where I just, I felt like nothing was working and I am very embarrassed, but maybe I’m not that embarrassed to tell you that what got me out of it was an edible.

    Susan: So I I microdose sometimes like five milligrams, THC, and, and I’m sitting there like, oh my God, it’s 8:00 PM. Should I get online with a girlfriend and do some more writing sprints? Like the words aren’t coming, maybe I should force myself. And Marvin looks at me and he was like, no, maybe you should take a break.

    Susan: Like there’s always tomorrow. And I was like, you don’t understand there’s never tomorrow. And he’s like, why don’t we kind of relax? And for me [00:03:00] it’s not alcohol. It’s not drinking that relaxes me is actually edibles. So I take the gummy and I’m sitting there. And then finally I look at him, you know, like after about 30 minutes, 45 minutes, it like takes effect.

    Susan: And I’m like, Marvin, what I really want to do right now is Marie Kondo Art’s room. And he was like, okay. And, and we have all these piles of clothes of all these hand-me-downs and I never want to look at them. I never want to sort them out. And, but it’s just like piles of like messiness everywhere. And somehow for the next four hours, I Marie Kondo, all the clothes, all the toys, you know, we’ve had this debate, are we having a second kid?

    Susan: Are we not in like, there’s just like all this breast pump stuff, all, all this stuff. And we get it out of the room and I feel amazing. It’s midnight. I feel accomplished. And the next day I write good words and I just find it kind of funny because it’s like, I was in this place where I don’t even know what’s really going to help me, but it [00:04:00] was at, yeah.

    Susan: Maybe you feel a little ashamed about it. It was edible that like, that at least reminded me, like got me into a flow. So then I was like, Hey, I am competent. Like, I can make a visual difference about something. Right. And then also. Since then I’ve been like writing so many words, but the point here is like I do the meditation.

    Susan: I have a therapist, you know, I got my affirmation workbook, but when I was in that point, I felt like I don’t even think about solutions. I don’t think about trying anything. I just sit there and I go like this sucks. And so I’m kind of curious with you two about what has your mental health journey been in terms of just the turn of being open to help?

    Susan: Because I think as, as Asian-Americans like our parents, well, my parents at least has totally stigmatized mental health. Like it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s an, it’s a sickness and there’s something wrong with you and we need to banish [00:05:00] all these problems away, but I kind of got to a point, especially after my mother’s death, that like, I was like, wow, therapy.

    Susan: It’s included in health care at college, and it’s essentially free to me cause I’m on a scholarship. I’m going to take it. So I’m curious about you two about like, did you have any judgment about mental health and what was the turn for you when you’re going to seek out help as a therapist? Because getting a therapist is one thing and actually applying the tools when you’re actually in a really, really big, low is another thing, but let’s just even just talk about therapy in general.

    Susan: Like what was the turn for you where you were open to getting help?

    Kate: Well, I guess I’ll go first. Cause it there’s like a very specific example. And I have told this story to a few of my friends, but not like on a quote unquote public platform, but I feel comfortable now because I’m in a much better place. So I think I struggled with depression for a lot of my life, including in [00:06:00] college.

    Kate: And you know, I remember senior year, there were days where I, I literally, I felt like I couldn’t get out of bed to go to class and that’s very classic textbook depression. Right. But there was also a lot of anxiety, but then I didn’t really seek help. I think I had this whole, like, you can do it.

    Kate: It’s not a problem. You can fight this, you know, mentality inherited. My parents until I was living in China. And then I moved back to the U S to be with my now husband in 2016. And I had such a great community in, in Beijing, a wonderful spiritual and friend community. And I came to Seattle. I didn’t really know that many people.

    Kate: And it was just really isolating because I was working from home and then my husband and I, at the time we had some relationship issues and I started having anxiety attacks, like to the extent where I couldn’t do anything. Like I couldn’t even do the most basic thing, like, you know, call somebody to schedule an appointment.

    Kate: Like I was paralyzed. And actually it was during one of my anxiety attacks and my husband was like, I think we need to like, call a psychiatrist and get you [00:07:00] some help. And I was like, no, I’m fine. I don’t need to take medicine. So he actually called for me because I refused. And then, you know, it kind of, it kind of snowballed from there.

    Kate: I finally found a therapist to start with. And a lot of people don’t know about it, right. Because. Probably like all, both of you. I think we were very

    Kate: good at kind of keeping shit together on the outside. Right? All this stuff is going well. Everything’s fine until, you know, bam, it’s really not. Although I guess in my case thing has, had not been going that well, like for a while. So I think since 2016, I’ve definitely embraced you know, going to therapy. I have been on medication both, you know, before pregnancy, during pregnancy and postpartum and you know, my husband and I have been to couple therapy. And so I think it’s, I I’ve come a long way from there. And, you know, as my husband put it the other day, he was like, you know, maybe we should just, you know, see like a couples therapist, just kind of as like a maintenance thing, not just, oh, we have a problem now, but more, we lead very challenging lives.

    Kate: It’s very tough. We have a lot of, you [00:08:00] know, there are a lot of issues that come up and we just need to have a check-in with someone. Right. So I feel like from 2016 until now five years, it’s definitely normalized a lot. Not just for me, but also for my husband and our household. And my mom actually knows that we see a couples therapist and she thinks it’s great.

    Kate: So I think we’ve really come a long way, but it wasn’t really easy. And I was definitely very resistant at first. So I don’t know for either of you, whether you encountered this sort of, I don’t even know it was shame was more like I can do it. I don’t have a problem. Well, maybe if I have a problem, I can still fix it myself, you know, for a long time until I literally like couldn’t and I was just prone.

    Susan: Yeah. What’s what is that about? You know, like for me, I had gone to a therapist at Harvard freshman year and they classified me as like, not bipolar, but like a mood disorder where it’s, it’s not full on. And I had a choice between were like, you want [00:09:00] meds? And I was like I don’t know.

    Susan: Like, I was so scared that it would change who I was, you know, I was scared that I didn’t know what would be taken away. And even though I wanted to have this like evenness that I admired in a lot of people, I was really afraid. And so I tried to do this like whole like natural thing where I was literally taking 12 pills a day.

    Susan: Like it was like three things of fish oil and and omega threes and vitamin C and D and E. And it was just like, It’s still this like pill thing. And I learned how to like take 12 pills in one gulp because it was, I was like, I’m wasting so much time, but there, I would say, I, I admire you, Kate, that you said that you, you just stated like, yeah, I was on meds because there’s still a part of me that always wonders, like how much better will my life be?

    Susan: If I do take meds, like what would that be like? But then I’m also scared. Like people have told me that there’s so many [00:10:00] highs and lows in terms of getting on the meds and figuring out which one and like how much it’s freaks me out. And then I go, Susan, you just got to tough it up. Like, if, if you’re feeling down, you, you can, will your way out of it by more meditation and more exercise.

    Susan: You get what I’m saying? I’m like, where is that line of which you can self cope and it is healthy. And these are like very healthy things to do to meditate and exercise. Or is it like. Like it’s okay to have that help. And actually it’s better. I’m nervous about the whole meds thing that I, even though I’m very much pro therapy, I’m still nervous about meds.

    Kate: I think a lot of people are actually you know, even people I know who believe in them. But then when it comes to themselves, they’re still worried. I think I was as well. And I think it really, really helps the find a psychiatrist whose approach is very similar to yours.

    Kate: I was lucky. I found someone who was very conservative. [00:11:00] He knows that I’m very conservative and that if I seek him out, it’s because it’s really bad for me. Right. And I think you don’t want to be where I was, which is that you just literally can’t function and your husband needs like, well, boyfriend at the time needs to like call a psychiatrist for you to take meds.

    Kate: By that point, I feel like you’ve sort of passed the ideal point, right? For me, I think the ideal point to start considering meds is sort of when you are feeling like every day is just a slog and it’s been like that for awhile. I think therapy is really great. But therapy doesn’t have, like the effects of therapy are not as quick, right. It’s more of like a maintenance. It teaches you healthy cognitive habits, coping habits mechanisms, but you will fall off. Right? Like

    Kate: I find one of the hardest things about therapy is that, you know, my therapist will be like, oh, here’s a good, you know, thing to do mental exercise, whatever to help you get out of this. Or as my acupuncture is like, you just need to relax, learn how to relax. I’m like, I don’t literally know how to fucking relax. I know you can tell me how will I actually exercise it. Maybe not. And I feel like this is where [00:12:00] meds, at least for someone like me are really important because they just kind of take the edge off of the anxiety so that I can kind of at least, you know, calm down enough to learn how to do these other things.

    Kate: And so I literally have always started at the lowest possible dose. Like at one point, my psychiatrist’s like, you know, this is a dose is like like a fifth of the standard normal dose

    Kate: that we give to an adult. Just so, you know, I was like, okay, that’s fine. He’s like, we can just work up from there. So I think, I mean, sorry, I didn’t intend to turn this into like a psychiatry lesson, but I know a lot of people have anxiety and I’m probably people who are listening to this might be having the same questions. So I just want to let people know that it’s, you know, it’s totally normal to have anxiety around meds and then here’s, you know, here’s what you want to look for if you are considering them. And here’s when it’s a good time to start. And when it’s kind of late, I mean, it’s never too late, but like, you don’t want to get to where I was right before you get started on it.

    Kate: Like that’s no bueno

    Susan: and like, look what’s happening in your mind is also a chemical reaction. Right? And so at a certain point, [00:13:00] like you got to deal with that and that’s what meds are good for. And what I find fascinating is if you told me hey I have celiac and I can’t eat wheat, I’m not going to judge you for it.

    Susan: Right. It’s like, that’s what your body like, that’s how you have to take care of your body. So if you, you told me or, or you have, you know, Issue where you’re like, this is occurring and I need medicine for it. Why do I judge it so much? And you know, like, why do I make it? I feel like I add like so many layers of meaning around it where I’m like, I just should try harder.

    Susan: Jeanette, do you have, did you ever experience any stigma around mental health at all?

    Jeanette: Yeah. I mean, I think that the difficulty, at least from my perspective, right. Of the struggle you’re describing about like, how do we think about mental health? How much of it can we really cope with on our own, by adopting healthy practices versus medication versus [00:14:00] therapy versus other forms of outside help is that, you know, I, I think that mental health is one of these things where it’s it’s not an or thing, right.

    Jeanette: It’s not a chemical imbalance or something a person did wrong. Right? It’s like, it’s actually kind of at least the best that I can understand it. It’s a complex thing where the outcomes are determined by multiple inputs. I think at least a small kind of will component of it, right? If you get up and exercise every day, that will probably help your mental health. Right. That is a net positive thing. But , you may also need whatever medication therapy, blah, blah, blah.

    Jeanette: Right. And so I think coming at it from the more typical like Asian cultural perspective, right. I think there’s such an emphasis on willpower that that’s why there’s this stigma about Needing external help. But I think that’s not to say that that perspective is totally wrong.

    Jeanette: I think that there is a small willpower component to it, but it’s just that [00:15:00] it might not be the only thing. Right. Does that make sense? But I think like on a lot of topics, it’s just in the public forum, it feels hard to have a nuanced multi-faceted discussion. It’s like, you just should go on meds or you should just do therapy or you should just eat the right foods and exercise.

    Jeanette: But, you know, I mean, I think the truth is for many people you need all of those things.

    Susan: Totally. You know, I want to piggy back on what you were just talking about with willpower. I was listening to Brene Brown her podcast. And she was talking about shame in one of her episodes, and this is her definition.

    Susan: She says it’s an intensely, painful feeling or experience of believing that we are flawed and therefore unworthy of love and belonging. And I remember when I heard that definition, I like I was on a walk, a power walk and I like literally stopped. And I was like, oh my God, I’ve, I’ve been ashamed my whole life.

    Susan: And I didn’t realize it, you know, like I didn’t realize, like that was the mores [00:16:00] of being Vietnamese. I was like, everything is about your fault. And that, that thing that you bring up about willpower is that you have the ability to change it. You can undo it and become lovable, or you can like, not be a problem maker, you know?

    Susan: And, and I think that’s, that’s where I feel like it’s so ingrained in me that I don’t even see it. Right. My own resistance to being like, oh, I don’t need other types of help or I will solve this problem. I’ll figure it out. I got this. And, and so I think there’s something around just recognizing that, that, that can be part of our conditioning to have resistance around it.

    Susan: Yeah. So I’m curious. So, so we all, all three of us have therapy wonderful therapists. And I guess my question Janette for you and Kate is do your parents know that you get therapy and what was their reaction?

    Jeanette: Yeah, my mom does know that I see a therapist and it’s kind of awkward actually, because, you know, I’m working from home and my therapy sessions are from [00:17:00] home.

    Jeanette: I go into my walk-in closet where I’ve put a small desk and I close the door to my bedroom and close the door to my closet. And I go in there and I do my therapy session. And often I’m talking about things that happened in my family growing up. And I will sometimes cry. Right. And I come out and I will see my mom and we just don’t talk about it.

    Jeanette: Like, even though it’s like pretty obvious that I’ve been crying because it’s just too, it’s just too hard right now, at least at this point to, to really hash those things directly with my mom. But yeah, so she knows, I think she generally approves. But I think she also sometimes like wonders what I talk about with my therapist.

    Jeanette: But she also doesn’t ask, I think maybe she doesn’t really want to know what I talk about in there. But yeah, but I think that she is not that she disapproves, but but you know, it’s like, it’s also things that are really hard to talk about and that’s part of why I have a therapist because I can’t talk about it.[00:18:00]

    Jeanette: It’s really hard to talk about it with my family. Which is kind of sad, but I think given the way things are, it’s like, it feels like that’s kind of the next best thing. But when I initially started seeing a therapist in college you know, I was very resistant to it and I think Kate, like you it was actually Jake who said, you know, you really, you need to go see a therapist because I was severely depressed.

    Jeanette: I was kind of having borderline like suicidal ideation and you know, I think that all this stuff that especially from growing up, that I had really stuffed into a tight corner and, you know, channeled it into like doing other things, especially at school.

    Jeanette: It just starting to unravel, I think, in college. And so, and it just felt entirely overwhelming. And so Jake was like, you need to go see a therapist. So I saw a Korean-American therapist for a couple months in college, and then I stopped. And then I saw another therapist for a year, a couple of [00:19:00] years ago and then stopped.

    Jeanette: And I’m seeing a therapist again now. But yeah, it’s been a journey. I mean, I think that it’s been very helpful to have more awareness of what’s driving some of my impulses.

    Jeanette: But you know, I wouldn’t say , all my issues are just, it doesn’t go away with a magical wand.

    Jeanette: Right. It’s not a magical wand at least like my experience so far, but it is helpful.

    Susan: Yeah. I’ve, I’ve always loved the constant unraveling of the self. And someone there, third party, you don’t know them, you don’t owe them anything. And then they’re just like, oh, you’ve, you’ve talked about that before or, oh, that, that type of behavior has happened before.

    Susan: And then they just kind of pin point it there’s no judgment around it. And it’s just another way to see yourself. And that’s been super helpful. I, I started therapy in, in college and I’ve never actually told this story before, out loud. So here we go. I was in this public service [00:20:00] organization called Phillips Brooks house.

    Susan: And during the summertime there’s a summer camp where you go into a Boston neighborhood, there’s like 80 campers. You have like 10 staff members and you put on a whole summer program for low income kids. And I got this like coveted director position as, as, as a freshmen, which was kind of like, Ooh, kind of risky because you should have a little bit more experience to like take on so much responsibility.

    Susan: And I got the slot. And about, I think maybe it was a week before camp started. I started getting hives on my body and and I couldn’t, I had no will and ability to go buy groceries. Like I just felt like it was just so hard and I felt so overwhelmed with so much happening and I felt so responsible that I just shut down.

    Susan: And the director of the organization pulls me into her office after my, my supervisor, like literally takes me to the grocery store to go buy food. [00:21:00] And she, she was like, Hey, I’m really concerned about you. I see you in myself. And I think you need help, or you can’t run the summer camp because I was just like out of, I couldn’t, I don’t know what it was, you know, and I was like, and then I felt like it was such a personal thing that I was not enough.

    Susan: And I, I checked in, into the hospital to H U H S I check in intake for a night and they just monitor me. Cause I just like don’t trust myself. Like I don’t, I don’t know what’s happening. And the next day I feel fine, but then I make that choice to go to therapy. Cause I don’t want to lose out on the summer.

    Susan: And then I start seeing someone and just having conversations and things, and I continue throughout undergrads and then healthcare is paying for it in grad school. And then and now I actively have a therapist, especially like if I lose a job, you know, or if I’m in a big transition especially when I became a full-time artist, I made sure I had one.

    Susan: Then sometimes they stop, you know, and I find different therapists for different [00:22:00] reasons. There’s great ones that are like postpartum. Like they really understand you right after you have a baby, all the hormone stuff that’s happening and all the different types of thoughts you might have.

    Susan: They’re specialists for that too. One was a specialist who really was into Buddhism and kids who have lost parents when they were younger. So there’s also all these like, specializations that are awesome. But my point in all of this is like, I needed someone on the outside to say like, Hey, I think you’re not okay.

    Susan: And it’s okay. That you’re not okay, but it could be better because up until that point, I also used to get hives in high school. My entire body would, and then I would carry epi pens around because I was like, what’s happening. But really it was like, I was so stressed out from school. Right. And I was just I and everything.

    Susan: So yeah, I just, sometimes it’s really nice when someone like you, Kate, your boyfriend, helping you out at the time, just to like say maybe you need some help. And Jeanette, I find it so interesting. What you’re talking [00:23:00] about you’re you’re in the beginning of college, like what you were feeling, because my perception of you in class, when I was like, oh my God, Jeanette is like the smartest person I’ve ever know.

    Susan: I feel so insignificant

    Susan: 20. Or where was this social studies? 10 20 with some, I

    Kate: don’t know.

    Susan: I wasn’t gov 20.

    Jeanette: Yeah. I was not social studies.

    Susan: You were not social studies. Okay. So maybe, okay. This was, this had to be Gov 10 then and I like, you were just like boom in class and maybe we had section together or something.

    Susan: And. I felt flacid, you know, like I felt like I was like, I was like, so smart. I should just probably give up right now. You know? And, and this is so funny. And then I’m going through my own mental journey and you’re going through your own mental journey too. Yeah, no idea.

    Kate: Right. I think there’s also so much pressure to just keep [00:24:00] it all together.

    Kate: Like, everything is fine. Right. Like I finally came out to a friend, came out to a friend that I have, like all these issues. We’ve been friends for. Like she’ll know who she is. If she listened to this, we’ve been friends for like, I don’t know, four years. And she’s, she’s like, I always look up to you. You just seem like, you know, everything’s good.

    Kate: I’m like, I know because control is my way of coping with severe anxiety. So therefore it looks like I have all my fucking shit together and all my fucking ducks lined up in a fucking row. But then. When things are not okay. They just, it just like goes to totally not. Okay. Right. You guys saw it last Thursday, we were supposed to record and I just showed up and I was like, I just had literally the worst day that sent me over the edge.

    Kate: Right. And so I think that, I think this is really important for people who are listening to this, that probably a lot of people are like this. Right. They seem like they have all their stuff together, outside that, you know, there’s just the pressure to look

    Kate: perfect, everything, you know, your career, woman, mom, whatever, whatever.

    Kate: And, [00:25:00] but there are cracks. And I think it’s nice now that more people are being open about how everybody has a fucking crack or more. And it’s okay.

    Kate: Right. Took a while

    Kate: to get here. You know, and the other thing I think also is really important is, you know, going back to what Susan you were saying earlier, what your parents do, your parents know?

    Kate: You know, when the mom knows we have like couples therapy, I don’t know if she knows that I have like personal therapy and the reason why I’m a little bit hesitant to kind of tell her is because you know, my mom’s a great person. She’s Christian, I’m Christian, you know, but I think she’s of that kind of like Christian, where if you have problems, go pray to God, he will like, that’s the solution to your problems.

    Kate: I’m sure Jeanette you’ll understand this line. I really hate it when Christians say that, sorry, Christian people, if you’re listening to this and you think that like, God can cure like a mental illness. No, sorry. Maybe, maybe like if in certain miracles.

    Kate: Right. But for a lot of people just praying is not going to, you know, fix their depression.

    Kate: Anxiety and other mental illnesses. And so, [00:26:00] you know, I think that’s why I don’t really want to tell my mom. Right. Cause I don’t want to be judged for like, oh, it’s because you haven’t been going to church lately or you haven’t found a bible study group, so maybe you should do that instead of, you know, going to see a therapist. I don’t know if that’s what she’ll actually say, but it’s like what I’m worried, she’ll say. Right.

    Susan: You don’t think she’s going to think it reflects anything on her?

    Kate: So my mom was like, you know, interestingly, she has a very like strong sense of self and like self confidence in who she is. It’s really interesting. I don’t think she’s going to think it’s her. So anyway, yeah. Jeanette, I don’t know if any of that resonates with

    Jeanette: you, a mom thing or the church thing?

    Kate: I don’t know about the Christianity thing. I feel it’s like a big, it’s like the big elephant in the room in Christian circles.

    Jeanette: Right. I feel like it’s a more slightly old school, like maybe more conservative vein of Christianity. Yeah. There are other Christians who might say also you need other people, you need community to help you process or whatever challenges you’re going through.

    Jeanette: [00:27:00] And that could include a therapist that could include mental health challenges. I think many people would say , God might answer your prayer, through somebody else. Right. Not necessarily like, through like a bam a miracle send a lightning bolt into your head to fix your depression.

    Jeanette: But yeah. Susan, when you were talking earlier about, you know, art, I mean, I think that that’s also something that’s, you know, heavy on my mind. That’s part of the reason why I went back to therapy recently

    Susan: Wait Art the baby, not the concept.

    Jeanette: Yeah. Art the baby, Art your son? Because I wanted to have an outlet

    Jeanette: that was not directed at my children. Right.

    Jeanette: You know, I, I still suffer through bouts of depression, and anxiety and just like different, habits that I’ve either learned or it’s a reaction to things I saw in my family growing up and, there are [00:28:00] many things that I don’t want to pass onto my kids.

    Jeanette: And I think really therapy helps me lower the chances that I will pass those on. And so, you know, I, I do think you’re right, , you know, having children is a huge motivator to try to keep up your mental health. They also happen to tax your

    Jeanette: mental health a lot. Right.

    Jeanette: So that’s the, that’s the other part of it, at least for me,

    Susan: I’m wondering like, okay, so depressive spells happen, right. I call them valleys. And I’m wondering , what do you do to get out? Or is it kind of like, this will happen for a few days and I’m just going to breathe through it. And, and my partner is more on point with the kids. Like it it’ll help it’ll [00:29:00] come.

    Susan: So what do you do when it comes? Or what do you not do?

    Jeanette: that’s so hard. It’s a hard question, right? Because , once you’re sliding into that

    Jeanette: place,

    Jeanette: the short term thing is , you just want to do all the unhealthy coping mechanisms. For me, it’s . I want to eat ramen. , there’s like my trigger foods. I want to eat ramen and then I want to eat ice cream and I just want to be left alone, watching binge TV, , because that’s how I cope with stress.

    Jeanette: When I was growing up, I would literally cram for finals, in high school and college for two weeks straight, I would take them and then I would come home. And for three days I would just be in my pajamas, watch TV and just sleep in. Like that’s just how I decompress, obviously as a mom now I just can not fucking do that.

    Jeanette: I wish I could, but I can not. Right. But I mean, the point is like, I think when you’re sliding into that place, I, part of what makes depression so hard is that the things that give you short-term comfort, like sometimes make it worse. .

    Jeanette: And so I don’t know. I mean, I don’t know if I have a [00:30:00] strategy.

    Jeanette: Like I, you know, I keep regular appointments with my therapist, which I think helps just. Keep it at bay slash if it comes like moderates, the effect or the intensity of it. I do let myself have some of those things, eat ice cream and have 20 minutes of TV time in the evening.

    Jeanette: Right. But I try to give myself a little breather and if I feel a little bit better, try to get one small thing done to try to start climbing back out of it. That’s yeah.

    Susan: Yeah. Totally. And tell me why it’s one small thing.

    Jeanette: Yeah. Because you need to regain that momentum of feeling like, okay, I’m not so stuck.

    Jeanette: I can get back on trying to move towards the things that I want, but you don’t want it to be so overwhelming where you you’re going to fail and you’re going to feel that right. Because that’s going to slide you further back down. So that’s

    Jeanette: usually. The way that I think I try to cope with it, but I don’t know if that’s a very intentionally thought out thing.

    Susan: Yeah, no, I’m just curious, you know, this is just like, it’s so [00:31:00] vulnerable when you’re in a valley.

    Jeanette: Yeah, totally. And so I get really cranky with Jake, even as I’m asking him for help, I get so cranky about it. I’m not sure why. Usually the bulk of it is not his fault.

    Jeanette: Right. He may have contributed a trigger, but generally the bulk of it is not really his fault that I’m in this low place, but when I need to ask him for help, I, I think I feel irritated with myself for having to ask for help. Maybe a part of me feels irritated that he doesn’t notice that I need help.

    Jeanette: And that’s a very Asian thing too. Right. Like, I feel like that shell. Yeah. Like also just like anticipating other people’s needs. And that’s actually another episode topic that I’d love to do sometime. Right. Whereas like in Asian culture, especially Korean culture, I know that for sure. Right.

    Jeanette: One of the ways you express love and affection and care for somebody is anticipating their [00:32:00] needs, even

    Jeanette: before they say it.

    Jeanette: I mean, and it’s like to a fucking extreme that I think

    Jeanette: is unhealthy.

    Susan: Give me an example.

    Jeanette: I don’t know,

    Jeanette: like like an

    Jeanette: unhealthy example. Sure. I’m not sure.

    Susan: I mean, what is it?

    Susan: Is it like, your mom puts your socks in your running shoes, so you can go exercise the next day? Like what are you talking?

    Jeanette: Yeah. Kind of like that, or like a mom might organize all your stuff for your picnic the next day. Right. And then , if you wake up and you say , I actually didn’t want to take that.

    Jeanette: She gets mad at you.

    Susan: Oh yeah.

    Jeanette: Right. But then you’re also like, I didn’t ask you to do that. But I think that there’s a part of me that does feel cared for in that way, because I think that that’s one of the ways I am used to receiving care and , just feeling like somebody is thinking of me. And so just to go back to, you know, the initial, the original thread is like, I think I also feel sometimes angry at having to ask for help because it’s kind of , can’t you see that I’m struggling right now and [00:33:00] why can’t you just offer help rather than me having to be like, help me, you know?

    Jeanette: So then the

    Susan: help me. Yeah. Yeah. Or like, don’t you care about me. We’ve been through this, you know? Okay. Now I’m talking about myself. But, but. We’re going through the spell, our kids exist. And then our partner that they’re next in line to help us if we can’t help ourselves. Right. And so Kate actually referred me to a great couples therapist that Martin and I went to and she, she, she gave us like language around around, Hey, when you have conflict, it’s called the pain cycle and people get triggered.

    Susan: Right. And it was just helpful for him to know these concepts. When I get bad, when I’m like, I slowly make my way over to the brown couch. And then I just like, kind of curl up in a ball and like, don’t care. I’m not going to go pick up art. Like, I’m not even saying I’m not gonna go pick up art. I just don’t do anything.[00:34:00]

    Susan: I go, Marvin. I need help. I’m about to be depressed. And then he’s like on his phone, looking at stuff, I’m like, Marvin, I really need help. Like, I don’t know what else I need to do. And then he stands there and he like pats me and goes, they’re there, they’re there. And then I’m like, look at the cork board, look at the cork board.

    Susan: And then he goes to the corkboard and then he reads, we have a checklist now, which is like go get a funny picture. There’s this picture on the wall where we’re in a rollercoaster and the giant mall of America and it’s SpongeBob square pants. And like, I’m like super excited and he’s like not, he comes, shows me the photo and I look at it and it’s supposed to make me laugh and I like bat it away.

    Susan: And then he goes to like, step number two, which is , get the red book. And then he’s like, where’s the red book? I’m like, the red book is by that printer. Those do get it. And then it’s like all these like nice letters someone’s ever given me. I like put in nicely, like when I was not in a depressive place.

    Susan: Right. And I’ll [00:35:00] look at it and I’ll just like, push it away. And then, and then the third one is like, hold me big spoon, you know? And then like, he doesn’t, he doesn’t, he’s like, he’s not even a big spoon. It’s like, it’s just like a, I dunno, like a ladle, like it’s, it’s like, it’s not, it’s just, it’s like, it’s a big tack, you know?

    Susan: And then and then I get so mad. I feel like I’m like piggy and Ms. Kirby and I’ll be like, and then, and then I’m like, not like that. And then, and then I’ll grab him and put him in my lap and then like, hold him and be like, like this. And then I’ll , let go. And then he’ll like, try to ML, smack him and be like, you’re not doing it.

    Susan: Right. But , it’s like an ordeal and if art was actually home. It’s like, I actually probably don’t have the time or like, I would be so embarrassed. Like I want to raise art to know that it’s okay to have feelings. It’s okay to have [00:36:00] ups and downs, but honestly, I become such a baby that I’m terrified that if I, you know, it’s always worked out timing wise, like maybe I’ll have this episode after he’s asleep and maybe that’s okay.

    Susan: But I’m freaking out, like when he’s five or six and then has more language around this and tells his friends at school, like I’m scared because maybe then I’ll just run into my room and like do the whole thing with a closed door. So anyways, that’s my confession, which is like, I feel like I still have to walk my husband step-by-step to support me.

    Susan: And even that is so exhausting because it’s like, I just, I don’t even know how to put it in words because I’m not in a low place right now, but it just, it’s so hard to just like function And yeah. Anyways, I just want to share that story.

    Jeanette: Yeah. I was just gonna say that part of what also, I think is triggering for me [00:37:00] around depression and children is that I’m actually, you know, my dad went through, I think he suffered with depression or he suffers with depression, and has suffered for most of his life. But he had a particularly bad episode when I was in sixth grade where, for like six months he couldn’t get out of bed.

    Jeanette: And I remember leaving for school, he was in bed, like I’d come home from school. He was in bed. And that just went on for weeks and weeks and months and months. And it was really hard I think to see that right.

    Jeanette: And so. I think that that’s part of my trigger around being depressed and then also the kids’ stuff.. I mean, like you Susan, right? I have a fear around letting my kids see that in

    Jeanette: me. It’s, it’s hard, right? Because I, like you said, I want them to know that it’s okay to have negative feelings and to feel down, but I also don’t want them to be totally freaked out by it. That this can be something that’s so , incapacitating, especially for an adult who’s supposed to be [00:38:00] taking care of them.

    Jeanette: Yeah.

    Susan: What are your thoughts, Kate?

    Kate: Yeah, I mean, I think all, all of These things are really big questions and, you know, I recently read this really great memoir by a Seattle-based writer. And it’s called the fixed stars. Her name is Molly Rosenberg. She had opened a couple of restaurants with her ex-husband anyway, in it, she quotes this psychoanalyst.

    Kate: Cause she basically, she’s going through this phase where she realized that she is attracted to also like to women. And and so she ends up separating and divorcing from her husband. She feels this total guilt, right with her daughter because they have a daughter together. Like how is this going to impact my daughter?

    Kate: And she feels really guilty for being away from her daughter when her daughter has like, you know, hurts herself, but then she’s with her new girlfriend or something anyway, all that she was quoting this psychoanalysts. And the gist of it is that there’s no such thing as a perfect parent in the [00:39:00] imperfection, it’s when children, as human beings, they start to learn how to respond to situations themselves and to develop a sense of self apart from their parents, which has to happen anyway.

    Kate: And I think all of us would never neglect our kids. Right. So it’s, I think what we’re talking about is how do we, it’s it’s a lot of it is in the nuances. How do we explain, you know when we have these feelings or what if my kid sees this? And I think what comforted me reading that quote in Molly was in Berg’s book is that there will be moments, right?

    Kate: When our kids see us lay down really low may not be six months in bed, like Jeanette’s dad. And there are some things we can do to prevent that, but some things we can’t, and, but we also have to remember that our kids are. They’re human beings who will go through their own experiences. This will shape them.

    Kate: There’ll be good experience and there’ll be not so good experiences, just like we had. It’s our role as parents to try to shepherd them through that, but we can’t protect them against everything. And ultimately there are also [00:40:00] learning opportunities. Right. And I’m not saying, okay, then it’s okay to like, have a total meltdown in front of your three-year-old.

    Kate: Right. I mean, they’re age appropriate thing, but I think if these things do happen at some point, I think maybe it’s not so bad for their development as we might fear it is because I think we, all three of us went through, you know, certain situations with our family or ourselves that we felt like impacted us very poorly that’s because there wasn’t necessarily the same structure or support around us that our children will have.

    Kate: Right. And also we have much more self-awareness around our mental health than our parents’ generation had already. That’s like a huge, huge advantage over. You know how we experienced maybe relatives or family members around this who had depression. So I’m not to sound, I don’t want to be glib and say, they’ll be fine.

    Kate: But I think if we just take it in stride, as our children are human beings who will live these very unique lives and we’ll have good and bad and all, you know, various experiences, we can’t hide certain things from them. Then, you know, maybe it will make us feel better about if some [00:41:00] things they see that are not so great right.

    Kate: About parents. Anyway, it’s just, I’m kind of just rambling now, but yeah, I dunno. Maybe be okay with us being somewhat imperfect. Right. I doubt either any of us are really

    Kate: going to, I mean, hopefully not be abusive. I mean, we’re not gonna be like abusive, right.

    Kate: There’s like a, kind of a big gap between abusive, emotionally and physically abusive parenting and then just, you know, having challenges as a parent.

    Susan: Totally. I, I think you’re right about just like, Hey it’s okay. Be imperfect or mom doesn’t always have the answers or it’s okay. To have bad days. It’s okay to have bad days.

    Susan: What I want to steer us down now, Kate is you’re talking about imperfection and I’m for me, mental health is [00:42:00] about the voices in my head of the inner critic of expecting things should be a certain way by this time or what I thought, why am I not successful?

    Susan: Or like, as good as that person, like I wonder because we’re super type a, the role of the inner critic and accepting imperfection. And then also like, where’s the room like, did that inner critic or that, that level of intensity in our mind help. Quote, unquote, succeed and get us places, you know, like how do we grapple with all this?

    Susan: How do we stay motivated? How do I, you talk about like, you don’t know how to relax. I don’t know how to relax either. I feel like I’m always like on, you know, and I’m just wondering, like, can we raise kids that have less of an inner critic that can somehow have less pressure and expectation that we placed on ourselves?

    Susan: Like, what are your thoughts about all of this?

    Jeanette: Yeah. You talked about this a [00:43:00] little bit, in the first season, right? How I think all of us to some degree felt like we motivated ourselves out of like a fear of failure and how we would want our kids to be motivated by something more positive than that.

    Jeanette: So more of an attraction or a love for something, rather than a fear of failure feeling.

    Jeanette: Yeah. And

    Jeanette: then, , I think, Susan, you mentioned the line, you were talking to 40 year old art and saying, you, you know, you love him, but you don’t want him to be a stoner your basement because he’s a grown up.

    Susan: Yeah. But I want him to, I don’t know. I want him to be self-sufficient and like, be able to take care of him, have the self-awareness to go and help if he needs it, you know, but, but did the inner critic help motivate us so much? And it was, it was it helpful, but how can we quiet it or make it more friendly?

    Jeanette: Yeah. And I wonder if there’s any research on this, but you know, I feel like the [00:44:00] inner critic, not that that’s a healthy way to motivate yourself in really any situation. I don’t know. Right. But , I also wonder if there’s any research showing, if that’s a more. A stronger motivator in certain circumstances where there’s clear inputs and outputs, because I feel like for, for all of us, like in school, you know, I think it was within our range of capabilities to meet the challenges, school posts for us.

    Jeanette: Right. Like we input certain hours and then we know where we’re highly likely to get some output, you know? And I think at this stage of at least my life and I think many of our lives, like you know, we’re kind of looking at what’s next. And a lot of things that I think at least I want in this next stage of life is not so clear input and output.

    Jeanette: Right. And I think in this kind of dynamic, I find that whole self critical thing to be, not an effective motivator because I am saying like, oh, you just need to do X and then you’ll get Y and then , why doesn’t have. Right. Or something different happens. And [00:45:00] then the critic just gets louder. . There’s no gratification of getting that next milestone. So, one thing I’m trying to think through is , okay, what is that? Yeah. What’s a different paradigm I can work in so that I can navigate those uncertainties and that longer time horizon, more effectively.

    Jeanette: And I’m not just going to get burned out along the way, or be super irritable with myself and everybody around me to, to achieve what I want. You know, and I think most of those are like more creative projects like this, or like entrepreneurship, right? I mean, there’s

    Jeanette: just the high failure rates,

    Jeanette: right?

    Jeanette: No guarantee of success, but yet it’s something I want to pursue. But I think that kind of self-critical voice that’s been really effective in getting me to this point. Just feels like it’s, it’s not working

    Jeanette: anymore.

    Kate: So think that, you know, self criticism is not necessarily a bad thing. I think there’s healthy and then not healthy. And I think the level of self-criticism that we might [00:46:00] have is maybe pathological. And I feel like that has a lot to do with how we were raised or, and, or attached to our parents. Right. I think it comes from a sense of, we don’t value ourselves. Like we don’t have a sense of confidence. Self-confidence and like I was saying earlier, you know, my mom, why she wouldn’t be offended if I went to the therapist, she wouldn’t think it’s her fault because I think my mom was raised in environment where she was given a lot of, you know, confidence in herself.

    Kate: Not like I’m the best, but more I am who I am. I feel comfortable with myself. I am securely attached and I don’t need to, you know, I don’t think that I’m somehow worse than other people. Right. And so, I don’t know. I sometimes I feel like a little desperate, cause I feel like it’s, it’s really bad.

    Kate: It’s really like, how do I change that? Right. If it was it’s because I’ve been like that since the beginning and you know, has to do with childhood attachment. You keep saying, you keep saying the word attachment. Can you clarify what you mean by that?

    Kate: Yeah. So attachment, or I don’t know if you’re familiar with attachment theory, but it’s like, you know, developmental neuroscience, [00:47:00] like, you know they hypothesize that depending on what your relationship as an infant and young child is with your main caregiver, caregivers, you would, there are different types of attachment, right?

    Kate: There’s like, like healthy, positive attachment, and then there’s attachment, that’s like disordered or negative. And that impacts how you cope with situations in the future, how you see yourself, et cetera. There’s actually, I actually Glenda, our other Harvard mom in Seattle recommended a bunch of books by Daniel Siegel and Tina Bryce and paint.

    Kate: Anyway, I forget her for her full name, but they talk about this a lot. Right. So I know reading, it was like both positive because I now know like what some of my potential parenting issues would be, but also slightly depressing. Cause I’m like, how do I change that? Right. About me because that’s just, I’m a poorly attached.

    Kate: I’m like I have disordered attachment with my parents right. From childhood. So I sometimes get really depressed. I didn’t think about that because like, you know, it just seems so overwhelming. But yeah, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t know. I don’t know how to like fix that self crisis. I think actually having a partner who’s really supportive and you know, [00:48:00] affirming is, is, is helpful.

    Kate: But you know, sometimes even that’s not helpful because if it’s something that’s like a voice in your head that keeps telling you, you suck and you can’t do this. It doesn’t matter if somebody else affirms you. Right. You know what I mean? Like that voice is still in your head. I don’t know. There’s like, no, no good answer to it. I think having a community, being more open about it and having people who kind of come out and support you and Maybe it’s helped

    Kate: is it’s helpful. I don’t know. I am really struggling with that actually.

    Susan: Can I just say I’ve been off social media for a month and a half now? And I can only do that right now because I’m working on my book and I don’t need to like promote anything.

    Susan: All I need to do is write the book and I feel like my mental health is so much better. I feel like when I was online, I get some kind of dopamine hit, just like, Ooh, did I get a message or what’s the update or whatever, but it was just like looking at everyone else’s [00:49:00] success. Made me feel really small

    Susan: and it was very overwhelming, but I would keep refreshing all day long to the point where I’m like, I didn’t get anything done and I feel really terrible. And so there’s something there about like, what are we surrounding ourselves by? What are we normalizing? What are we actually creating space for for ourselves?

    Susan: And is it working? Does it benefit us? I just want to put that out there because it’s, I think for me as an artist, like I need social media to sell tickets, you know, or like give updates and all this stuff, but it has gotten, it has gotten to a point where I was going to get off. I was going to come back to social media end of September after I was going to come out of my writing pitch soon.

    Susan: But I, I think I might even extend it through the end of the year. Cause I can, but it’s just been like social media, like what was that movie called? The, the social.

    Kate: Oh, you mean the documentary, the [00:50:00] net. I know what you’re talking about. That documentary

    Susan: dilemma, the social dilemma let’s talk to you about how it’s just engineered for us to like, get more intense and extreme about the things that we’re thinking about.

    Susan: And it’s just like I dunno, it’s just like really real. Yeah.

    Kate: I can, I can totally see that Susan. I’ve been thinking whether or not I should go on a social media hiatus myself as well, because while I think there are a lot of benefits for me, like I’ve gotten some great tips from there and made some friends actually through social media, but I’ve, I feel like I have.

    Kate: Love hate relationships with it hate for the same reasons that you just outlined Susan or it, and it promotes the superficial image of somebody else that in turn makes you feel really shitty about yourself. And it doesn’t even help that people are like doing, you know,

    Kate: like real life versus

    Kate: no filter because it’s still a, self-consciously like, they’re still

    Kate: doing their filters

    Kate: and they’re still doing, they’re not really in real life most of the time.

    Kate: And then occasionally be like, oh, this is my actual real life. I’m like, okay, sure. But, and so, yeah, [00:51:00] I think that’s like, That’s definitely a big part of, of, of the mental health thing. And so how can we construct an environment that sort of removes these negative stimuli or things that cause us to kind of stay in our negative, like holding pattern?

    Kate: I think that’s really important because I think I don’t have that much self control. Right.

    Kate: If I need to engage in these things, I mean, theoretically you could say, oh yeah, Kate limit your use of

    Kate: Instagram to whatever 10 minutes

    Kate: day. Okay. Maybe other people can do it, but like I’ve poor self

    Kate: control, which also is related to all these other things.

    Kate: Right. And so it just doesn’t work. Like I think just to have to cut it out. Right. And just remove yourself from that situation. It’s hard and I’m still kind of waffling over it, but now listening to you say this and how beneficial it’s been for you. I’m like, I think I really need to like cut that cord, you know,

    Susan: I mean the whole self control thing.

    Susan: And I think I learned this from YouTube Jeanette, right. Where you can put timers on the apps that you use. Through your phone and then it’ll kick you off. And then you have, you have a, your secret part, your person has a [00:52:00] secret code. So then back when I was on social media, after 30 minutes, I like go up to Marvin and hand him the phone and he’s like, what’s this for?

    Susan: And I’m like, oh, I got to finish this post for this like thing. And then, and then he gave me like five more minutes and that was it, you know? But it was, it was someone else holds the code to extend time. Otherwise you cannot functionally go back on Instagram. So I just feel like if there’s someone who has to live in the in-between world, where they do need social media, for whatever reason, then they, that I don’t trust myself, but I, I trust my machine that will lock me out, you know?

    Susan: Yeah. How about you, Jeanette? Do you have a healthy relationship with yeah.

    Jeanette: I mean, I think I’m, it doesn’t really, it seems like affinity for social media. Doesn’t really correspond with the introvert extrovert, personality dimension. I used to think it did, but I know a lot of introverts who also post a lot on social media.

    Jeanette: So I, now I think it’s not really corresponding but I’m one of those introverts who, [00:53:00] who doesn’t really gravitate towards social media, that heavily. So I do check it, but then sometimes I’ll go literally weeks or months without checking it. And I don’t even really, I kind of forget that it’s there.

    Jeanette: So I think whatever, my personality or brain, whatever, I just don’t, it’s just not something that. It’s not my drug of choice. Like I have other drugs cream ice cream ramen television. I love

    Jeanette: television, you know?

    Susan: Oh my God. When you said that you binged TV, I was like, it’s a history channel, right?

    Susan: Like what do you watch? You watched? Like, are you doing something crazy? Like Richardson, like, so,

    Jeanette: no, I like, I liked,

    Jeanette: I liked, I liked like documentaries

    Jeanette: and yeah.

    Kate: Oh my gosh. Of course. Jeanette would binge documentaries. I’ve been watching Chinese historical dramas.

    Kate: What have you been to Susan? Oh my God. This tells a lot about our personalities,

    Susan: I guess I, oh my God.

    Susan: The last, okay. The last three seasons that I binge watched was succession [00:54:00] billions and Bridgerton so yeah, I’ll make your own conclusions about me.

    Jeanette: But yeah, social media is not. As much of an issue that there’s like other issues. Right. Other things I have to more like tried to exercise, self control around.

    Jeanette: Yeah, I think also just to go back to the whole attachment thing, Kate I’m curious to hear , how that’s influenced, your, your thinking about your interactions with RIAA. Right. Because I think that that’s

    Jeanette: something also I’ve been reading about, and it just seems like,

    Jeanette: it almost feels like there just needs

    Jeanette: to be like a parenting class on, right.

    Jeanette: Like, because it any kind of childhood development, literature that you might read, refers to attachment theory, it seems kind of like a bedrock idea yet. I feel like a lot of people are not really aware of it. I wasn’t really aware of that. Prior to having kids. And you know, based on this theory.

    Jeanette: . I could see a lot of people not having a [00:55:00] secure attachment or not. Yeah.

    Kate: I’m like, yo, your conditions for like secure attachment. I was like, I don’t know very many people who had that, you know, growing up at least in our generation.

    Susan: So I think curious, if we were to analyze that based on profession and like other people who are actually secure, what did they go into?

    Susan: Like, are they all like sculptors or something? Like, what do they do?

    Jeanette: Yeah, no, but there, there are studies actually that show like, you know, based

    Jeanette: on how you secure your attachment is at age three, like how kids perform in school and you know, how healthy are they physically and mentally and emotionally.

    Jeanette: And there’s a very strong correlation between, you know, your type of attachment, even at like age one versus where you are in life at age, like 18 25, 35, right.

    Susan: Oh my God. I feel like I should, we should take the survey. Like I don’t even know my attachment thing.

    Kate: Probably disordered Susan.

    Susan: Okay, great. [00:56:00]

    Kate: Just in case all us immigrant kids.

    Susan: Yeah. I mean, yeah, it’s crazy. Like when, when you’re about to have a baby, your hospital, might have all these classes and like they spend so much time teaching you how to do a swaddle thing. And then I find out that you can just buy the Velcro swaddle thing and I’m like, why am I going to spend this much time when I’m exhausted.

    Susan: Why am I going to swaddle this baby when they could’ve just like, use that module time to do 30 minutes on attachment theory? Yeah. That could’ve been.

    Kate: You know, just to kind of respond to Jeanette’s question and then kind of, maybe we can wrap this up is, you know, yesterday my dad made the comment cause he met Ryan for the first time.

    Kate: He’s never met her since like he went back to China two days before she was born. Right. So he’s finally back. And then after like two days he was like, wow, so much work. And my mom and I were like, yo, you did like no work the last two days. Okay. And he’s like, but how do you think my mom? So my grandma, he was like, [00:57:00] how do you think she raised four kids?

    Kate: Like, that seems like a lot of work. Right. But she was fine. I’m like that you have no idea the pressures that we modern moms today face.

    Kate: Right. So I had to like enunciate it for him. And I was like, oh, also by the way, we have to like encourage this positive parenting.

    Kate: Right. This like attachment. I was like, your generation just said, shut up to their kids, lock them in a room or just like, you know, kind of just let them wander off or do whatever. Like there was no sense of let’s, you know, use positive. Encouragement, no yelling, no, like, you know, all this stuff. So and he was like, oh, okay. But I don’t, I don’t know if he really got it, you know, but, but it’s true. Like actually I think to Susan’s point we’re taught, okay. Like here’s how, you know, safely put the kids in car seat. Like here’s how you swaddle, how it’s, how you sleep, train. Here’s how you buy the best products for the kid.

    Kate: But you know, the real exhausting work is how do you create this positive relationship and attachment with your child so that they can have a sense of self that is very positive, that is secure so that they won’t have to go through the same kind of shit [00:58:00] that all three of us went through right.

    Kate: As adults. And I think that’s, I don’t know. It’s, it’s tough, but I think I’m very committed. Just like the two of you are to kind of working out my. Issues. And also any issues that might have with my my husband so that we can in the best way possible that we could provide just a more affirming environment right. For our daughter. And I’m sure we’ll make mistakes. Like my husband, I have definitely yelled at each other in front of our daughter already. But then also just extend ourselves grace. Right. I think that’s the other thing we’re so hard on ourselves. And even in our process of like recovering and like healing, we’re also really hard on ourselves for like, oh my gosh, we have to get to this like perfect mental state.

    Kate: Otherwise our children are going to be scarred for life. Right. Yeah.

    Kate: And I feel that sometimes like, oh my God, I’m like, I’m fucked. Like, you know, oh my gosh, I’m going to damage my child for life. Like, I’m not a big parent. Why should I have kids in the person? Which by the way, we’re going to talk about in a future episode.

    Kate: Right? Well, I have kids in the first place, but you know, Hey, let’s give our selves some fucking grace, right? Like we’re already talking about this. We’re [00:59:00] already being open about our mental health, which is like big step number one. And we’re already seeking therapy or, you know, we’re getting therapy with our significant others.

    Kate: Maybe our significant others are getting therapy. Like we don’t have it down pat, but we’re doing the best we can, you know? And maybe we should like give ourselves a pat on the back about that. What do you think?

    Susan: Can we all pet her? So right now I’m going to pat myself, I’m going to give you a gold star. I, all, everyone gets some gold stars and the final image I want to leave.

    Susan: All of our listeners with is Kate’s dad going? My mom, you know, my mom, she didn’t really spoke for kids and it was fine. And I’m sitting there going like you men, you met him deal the labor.

    Kate: Thanks, Susan. It’s hilarious. Men are funny. All right. That’s awesome.

    Kate: you’ve just listened to a confessional of model [01:00:00] minority moms. If you loved this episode, please give us a rating. Follow us on Instagram at model minority moms and tell a friend about us. If you have a suggestion for a future episode or questions, send us an