- Season 3, Episode 5 – Part 1: The Awkwardness of Adult Friendships
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Susan: Hey, what’s up. Welcome back to model minority moms. Today, we are talking about adult friendships and it’s something that we don’t really talk about a lot. We teach our kids about friendships, but how we navigate as adults is not really talked about. I first started thinking about this when I thought about Marvin and how he’s been like a best man or groomsmen to like six different weddings.
Susan: And I’ve only been asked to one of them and it was my sister, which I kind of feel like maybe she didn’t have so much choice. And then I started thinking about like, oh my God, do I even have like really close friends? either of you ever been [00:01:00] maid of honors or bridesmaids, or like, do you keep track of that?
when someone who you think is going to be like, Oh, I definitely invited to their wedding and I’m bridesmaid material. And like, you’re neither like, have you had this kind of. Realization of, oh, I guess we’re not on that level. Like as an adult, how are you feeling with your friends? are you feeling like lacking really great? let’s talk about friendships.
Kate: You know, at first when you said that I was a little surprised, cause I was like, oh, you knew Marvin, the cat robot husband was like that. And then you’re very like, obviously after it, but then I thought about a smart. I was like, you know, actually maybe it makes sense.
Kate: Cause Marvin may not know as many people or like be as gregarious as you, but maybe he just like does more like one-on-one or maybe, I don’t know, he’s like really loyal person.
Susan: Cause I’m not loyal.
Kate: No, no, no. I was like, okay, well I just put my foot in my mouth, but I mean, you know, like how some people are just like, have their high school friends you know, I don’t know.
and then maybe because you’re friends with a lot of people, but maybe people are like, oh, well Susan is I’m sure very busy or like whatever. And then, you know, I don’t know.
Susan: I feel like for me. [00:02:00] I’ve always been jealous of the movie mean girls. you always sit with the same people, the cafeteria, you always hang out you know who you’re gonna spend the weekends with. Like, I’ve been jealous of them, but I’ve always loved the freedom of being able to hang out with lots of different peoples in lots of different groups. Like, I love that. and that’s what my adult friends are. Like, if you look at all my bridesmaids, they were all like from different phases of my life and they all didn’t know each other.
Susan: And then we all went to like a clothing, optional, hot Springs for my bachelorette. And it was like really beautiful, like that’s how I formed my relationships. It was based on my life experiences, I guess. And for Marvin, he has a couple of clusters that were like really tight and then they all asked him to be a groomsmen.
and so I go to all these weddings and then I start to feel insecure because I’m like, oh, I’ve never been asked.
Jeanette: I think where I am in terms of like my satisfaction about my friendships is kind of somewhere in the middle, I would say, you know, I’m not despairing, but I’m also not like, oh, you know, I feel really completely [00:03:00] satisfied with the state of my friendships. and I can, I just
Jeanette: like make a meta note here that, you know, I even feel even now at age 37, just talking about this gives me a little bit of like anxiety, you know, just like, oh my gosh, do I have any friends?
Jeanette: And like, if I don’t what does that mean? You know? butI think that feeling for me is actually more new, I think that’s some time around middle school. I kind of. Almost like self opted out of this whole friendship, like stuff. and if that sounds really weird and maybe a little bit sad, but
Susan: it’s called relationships, should it relate?
Jeanette: Like, I kinda like started opting out of like relationships and it got really bad when I was in high school, you know? So, it’s hard to just go all the way back, but in middle school, basically, you know, half of my middle school was Korean, Korean Americans um, probably another like white and Jewish students and then like 10% were other. And so demographically, I would’ve belonged with the Korean American students and they always hung out in this huge group, in the lunch yard, but I [00:04:00] just didn’t really feel like I fit in with them and I didn’t really want to hang out with them.
Jeanette: So I ended up hanging out with the 10% of like the outcast, I was friends individually with some of the Korean American girls, but I didn’t, I wasn’t really part of that overall community. And I feel like maybe I would have been accepted, but I kind of opted out.
Jeanette: And so my middle school friends were this girl who was Filipino American one who was like, her family was from Czechoslovakia. another one was Indian American one girl that I was really close with that I’m still friends with, who was the maid of honor at my wedding was, is she’s like half Japanese and half Chilean, So it was just this group of like odd ball. Like we don’t fit in anywhere kind of girls.
Susan: you’d all be cast in a really nice, like diverse ad these days, you know?
that’s a nice way of putting it. We’re just like the remnants that didn’t fit anywhere, but we also all happen to like, like each other.
and then in high school I just got super focused on school and I just decided that, doing the best I possibly could in school was just [00:05:00] my only way out of this. Situation that I, I really hated, growing up poor and like unstable with my family. And so I had friends, but I didn’t have any close friends.
Jeanette: And I think that’s one regret that I have from high school and college, you know, I even had people say to me that they were angry with me because they thought that I was choosing my schoolwork over relationships.
and then I kind of carried that mentality, like into college, but then Jake, was basically this wrecking ball that just like came smashing in.
I was like, I don’t have time for relationships. Like no relationships, no friendships, you know? And he was like, where are you going to be? I’m like, I’m going to be at the library. He was like, okay. And then he would come sit next to me and just like, bother me, you know, for the next like two hours.
Jeanette: And I was just like, who is this guy? so that’s kind of my young adult history with friendships, which is a little bit sad, but you know, now I feel like I’m kind of coming back and starting to feel like, oh, you know, maybe relationships are important. I mean, this is all to say, it’s not like I don’t have friends, but I feel like I [00:06:00] haven’t always really prioritized or spent a lot of emotional energy on, cultivating really, really deep friendships and also fretting over them.
I kind of tend to be like, oh, if relationships kind of fade that’s okay. there’s like new relationships and maybe some of that is healthy, but some of it is maybe comes from a place of I’m just detached in an unhealthy way. Does that make sense?
Susan: Is it to protect yourself?
Jeanette: I think a part of it is to protect myself and. part of it is If you’ll humor me and allow me to go on another small tangent. Um, so I read this, like a year or two ago, I read this article in the new Yorker about, you know, in Romania, they had this policy, like in the eighties, I think where the dictator just said, like, we should have a lot of children.
Jeanette: So he like made people, like have lots of children. And a lot of those children ended up in orphanages, where they were like, not cared for, you know, they were just left in their crib and like nobody ever came to pick them up, even if they cried And when the dictatorship fell, people from the outside started coming [00:07:00] in, and one of the places they discovered are these like mass institutional, like orphanages, and a lot of the kids there, they were severely developmentally stunted.
Jeanette: Like a lot of them couldn’t talk. They couldn’t use the toilet independently, even though they were like genetically fine. Right. Because they just never, formed the like normal human attachments. And I remember they, particularly focused on this one boy, who, despite growing up in this situation, he managed to learn how to talk.
Jeanette: You know, he, he was like reasonably bright, he probably would have been very bright in a normal circumstance. But he was the kid who went, the people came in with tell the adults, like, what was going on? Like this kid is this, you know, he has this problem, et cetera. He eventually got adopted by American family when he was like eight or nine.
but he never managed to form relationships. Then something that he said, kind of struck me, which is like, you know, when he was in high school and all his peers were, you know, totally stressing out about girlfriends or boyfriends or best friend breakups or who to sit with at [00:08:00] lunchtime.
Jeanette: Like he just didn’t get it. Like, he just was like,I don’t get why this is like so important to them. I’m not saying that’s how I feel, but there is like a tinge of that that I can identify with. you know, and it’s not like I co I like totally blame my parents or anything, but.
Jeanette: I think it’s like a combination of my experience with my parents, plus my own personality and how I reacted to the situation. I think a part of it was like, I just decided relationships had to be second or third priority, you know, in my life kind of hierarchy of needs. and like everything else becomes subservient to my goal of achieving a more stable life where I felt safe.
and so I think relationships kind of became, I am a victim of that, if that makes sense. So I’m not comparing myself to some, well, maybe I am, but I’m just saying like there’s a shadow of that I feel like I can kind of relate to. Sorry. That sounds really depressing and sad.
Susan: It’s really dark. Yeah.
Jeanette: Yeah. I know.
Susan: But I think you’ve explained it to me in a new way for me to get understanding.
Jeanette: After many years and, [00:09:00] being married and now having kids, it’s like, my understanding of that is kind of changing again. And I would say I really value having a sense of a church community and, hosting things and just kind of building an infrastructure that other people can kind of glob onto.
Jeanette: But I think I’m more talking about like individual friendships, right? Like, I’ve never really spent a lot of time, like worrying, oh, who’s my best, best, best friend, you know? And is that person also think I’m their best, best, best friend? Like, I just never did that. And that just seems like a very normal thing for kids to do.
Jeanette: And I just somehow like, didn’t do that.
Kate: I can kind of identify with not exactly your journey, but just how it isn’t necessarily conventional. Like I wasn’t interested in making friends before I went to college, like, I was always a little bit of a loner, by choice actually. I just didn’t feel that people, other kids shared my interests, you know?
Kate: And so that’s why I was always, like, I brought a book to all the Chinese parties and the parents, be like, look at Kate she’s so good. She reads anyway, but it was because like, I didn’t [00:10:00] really want to socialize with the other kids, you know? Um, and even in high school, I didn’t have much of a social life, I wasn’t like upset about it.
Kate: You know what I mean? Like, I didn’t feel I had this obligation, but it was interesting when I went to college. for the first time I met people who I thought, oh, we have maybe similar interests. And the background is really interesting. And so I kind of like made lots and lots of friends, but I think I was also incredibly naive because I think I had not really had practice making friends before.
Kate: And so I just thought it was very simplistic, like, oh, let’s talk. Okay. Now we’re friends. And like, I just think that everything’s really great, but like there was some drama, I won’t go really into detail, but there were some like really upsetting drama and so I think it traumatized me to like actual close female friendships. like for awhile, it’s actually, my closest friends were male, which is also problem itself. And that’s like a whole nother episode that we can do.
Kate: But like for many years afterwards, I was like, I can’t this whole girlfriend thing, you know, like the mean girls, I was like, oh, I don’t want to do that. It’s like too [00:11:00] complicated. And like girls are mean to each other. You know what I mean? So it wasn’t until I would say my late twenties that I actually started having close trusting positive female friendships, so I came to it very late, I think in a sense. I don’t really believe in like a best seat, you know, for, for my wedding. I didn’t have bridesmaids. I just had some close friends, both male and female who I assigned important roles.
Susan: Like you so much, you’re going to be responsible.
Kate: Yeah. But I didn’t want to artist and she’d be like, okay, here’s or you’re the, like the five best besties in my life. And, you know, also cause Nirav up didn’t. I mean, he doesn’t have as many friends as me, so he was like, I don’t know who to pick. Like if you pick 10 people, I like
Kate: I don’t have that many. Anyway, sorry. I’ll let you say is that I think I also have just a very, like, not very conventional approach to friendship for a long time. And also I would like very immature, I think at a later age, maybe when most people have more experience with friendship.
Kate: I looked back on my high school years and I think I’m kind of like Jeanette.
Susan: I was looking for a way out. And so my [00:12:00] hierarchy of needs was like achievement boyfriend, and then friendships and relationships. and I lost, I definitely got dumped. I had a doubt she’ll ever listen to this. I got dumped when I was the ASB president, my ASB vice president, who was my best friend at the time dumped me.
Susan: And so all senior year, it was very awkward because we were like supposed to be leading the school together, but not talking. and I, I think she, she dumped me because I really prioritize extracurriculars in school and boyfriend and she did it, she flipped it. Like she, she really valued friendships.
but like looking back on it, I’m like, and even in college to this, like, How much I’m like achieving is it to have more opportunities because of my background and where it came from and my family history, is it because I’m looking for some sense of approval and worthiness that I didn’t ever get from my parents and my dad, especially my dad.
Susan: And that’s why I’m putting so much energy into achieving. I mean, this also goes to say that I do have healthy relationships and friendships now, [00:13:00] and it’s great, but, there was just like a lot going on in high school that I didn’t, feel like I wasn’t very aware of myself of like, why I was behaving the way I was behaving.
and look at my wedding. I only invited one person from high school I know a lot of people don’t stay in touch with their high school friends, but. I just happened to be the school president and knew everyone at school. Well, like all 1600 people. So it’s like, it wasn’t like I didn’t have relationships or know what those were.
Susan: I like depended on them actually, but I was also just like totally focused on myself, but maybe that’s okay for a teenager. but I got dumped and I tried to repair that relationship for years and that person didn’t want to repair with me. And, you know, it hurt my heart because we were friends for a number of years.
and then I made it about me, you know, I kept thinking like, what can I fix? what can I change about me to fix this? And throughout the course of my life, whenever I did get dumped from adult friends, especially in the last few years, I got dumped by two friends. certain things will trigger it for me, where I see them post online [00:14:00] or they might be in an event that I’m going to be at and it freaks me out. Like it makes me very nervous. because I know they’re not friends with me because of something that I can’t really change about myself, or they didn’t want to take that time to talk because with each of the times I got dumped on like, let’s meet up. you’re still very important to me. Like I leave the door open, but then there’s people that are in choice and you have to respect their boundaries around it. But then what am I left with? But to think like, I’m flawed, I’m so effed up, like, I’m unworthy. Like I got kicked to the curb, you know?
it spirals me. I want to know that I’m grounded and like, I’m enough. I have lovable, like when I see their names anywhere. In the digital space or I might see them. I get really anxious. so yeah. I’m wondering if, if any of you have been dumped and what that was like for you,
I’m listening to you, Susan.
Jeanette: And I’m like, I’m like, have I gotten dumped, but then I just don’t even feel
Susan: like I wasn’t even notified,
Jeanette: but you know, it’s like, because I think [00:15:00] there are definitely relationships that, you know, where we used to be friends. And you know, now I would say we’re just more people who used to know each other or acquaintances, or we’re just not close friends.
I might say you’re we’re friends, but we’re not close and we haven’t kept in good touch. and so I guess I’ve never had somebody be like, I don’t want to be friends anymore, but I’ve had definitely many friends where. They’ve just drifted out of my life. and it might be because like, their life situation changed or there there’s something going on in their life that I can’t relate to, or I don’t agree with.
I think I tend to frame it more like, as we’re drifting apart then, like I got dumped, but don’t you like grow apart from people when you don’t want to be friends with them?
Jeanette: Um, yeah.
like on your end?
Jeanette: Right. that’s definitely a part of it right.
so I think that definitely happens. It’s just that I’m trying to figure out if, what you’re describing, like if I were in your shoes, how I would experience it,if it would also be clear to me that it was quote unquote a dumped [00:16:00] situation, or if it, I would just see it as like, oh, we’re just drifted apart,
Susan: Oh, I got dumped twice. But I mean, I don’t know, like, I really hate it when people are like, oh my God, I’m just so bad at keeping in touch. And then like, if I run into someone or something, and then I’m like, is that true? Or like, did I like annoying you on such a fundamental level, but our relationship isn’t that important to you that you wouldn’t bring it up to have a conversation?
Susan: Or is it we’re just conflict avoidant people yeah. It’s just easier that when something goes wrong, it’s easier just to not say anything and just kind of let things fizzle and fade away. And that’s just life.
Kate: I feel like. I’ve actually dumped a friend and I’ll explain shortly why.
Susan: Did you tell them?
Kate: No, so that was a problem. I was also young, a young adult at the time. Right. Like I was like 22. and then I don’t think I’ve been directly dumped. Like somebody’s like dropped me like a hot rock or told me, Hey, I don’t want to be friends, but I’ve definitely have experienced a lot of the drifting way, which I [00:17:00] also struggled with because, you know, they were people that I was really close to at one time and I did go through initially I thought, oh, it’s me.
Kate: but then I realized, well, you know, I lived abroad a lot after college. and I actually, for me that maybe try to keep in better touch with people because I was like, oh, I’m not seeing them. I’m not in New York. I’m not in SF. I’m not in these hubs. I know Susan, you think is not an excuse, but some people just like, if you’re not there, it’s just how they work. it’s not like they intentionally, like, I don’t want to talk to Katie anymore. you know, it’s more like, oh, I have all these friends around me and like, they get very engaged and they’re like social life.
Kate: But then I realized when I see these people, the feeling that I have with them is the same. Like, I feel very comfortable, like we can kind of catch up. I mean, yeah, sure. We won’t have the same friendship that we had that not the same intensity, as we had before, but it took me like, I don’t know, maybe like six, seven years to kind of turn the corner around that to sort of adjusting my own expectations and also realizing that maybe it wasn’t like me who was like the problem per se.
Yeah. Anyway, so sorry. I dumped that [00:18:00] friend She’ll never listen to this podcast. It’s fine. Because I found out that she had been basically two-timing me.
Susan: she had another friend.
Kate: No, no, no, no, not, no, no, not that way. like she had a lot of guy friends. and I became friends with them cause you know, we would all hang out together.
Kate: But basically she was like trying to like, not really date all of them, but a lot of them paid for a lot of stuff for her. And then she had been like seeing one where she was seeing the other, but like, I didn’t know. And I kind of pieced it all together eventually. Cause you know who these guys would come to once they felt their heart was broken, me. So I became like, you know, the sweeper of all the shredded pieces of their heart. And I was like, what is going on? This girl was like master manipulator. She even manipulated me into like going along with this thing for two, three years anyway. I can’t be friends with this person anymore.
like, it was like a moral, ethical decision. And yes, I was a coward. I should have like, maybe told that to her face, but I felt this was also a person who could never understand what she had done was wrong. You know what I mean?
Susan: Well, I think the question is [was the point.] Do you want to salvage the relationship?
Kate: No, I didn’t. At the point I was just like, this person I’m cutting [00:19:00] her. That’s probably, the only time I’ve done that to somebody in my life. Like that’s how bad it was, but I wonder if I would have handled it differently, like now versus, you know, I was like 22 and also very conflict avoidant I don’t know, but I used to get palpitations every time.
Kate: I also like saw her name and . I think one time I saw her on the street, like seven years later and I was just like,
Kate: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. for you guys, what constitutes a close friendship, you know? So it’s like, okay. I have other parents that I know through my kids’ daycare. Like I wouldn’t call them friends. Right. But what has to be true in the last, 12 to 24 months? Or some timeframe for you to just say, oh yeah, that person’s a friend of mine. And what would constitute a good friend.
Susan: Okay. Good friend for me is I’d be like Marvin they’re slipping. for whatever reason they need to sleep over, I want them to sleep over
Susan: Jeanette, you’re not having sleepovers all the time. No, I’m just saying that’s like the bar [00:20:00] where I’m like, I’m willing to have you in my space for a period of time. That’s at least 24 hours where we’re going to be using the same bathrooms or you’re going to know I poopoo, but like also it’s like, I’m going to be in my PJ’s and not wearing a bra.
Susan: And like, we’re just hanging out and maybe we’re going to hang out like really late into the night. So we’re going to be talking for at least another like three to six hours and like want to do it. That’s a good friend. That’s like, you’re in my space. And my husband who hates people, he’s going to have to put up with it and he doesn’t want it to happen, but I override it and be like, no, they’re coming over.
Susan: That’s a good friend, friend, girl. I meet anybody on the plane, on the street, in the grocery store. You become my friend. Everyone’s my friend, everyone, like, I’m like the Bernice mountain dog. I am like everyone. I love people. I love friends. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. You know, and like, that’s my Achilles heel, because I’m like with my family, with anybody, with any relationship, Marvin is like, you can’t expect everyone to be your best friend.
these are unrealistic [00:21:00] expectations. Cause I’m like, oh, well, why isn’t this happening? Or why is it like ? And then he’s just like, Susan, like this is unrealistic. And I was like, you’re out realistically. I want connection. I think we are all interconnected man. And I’m like, yeah, let’s have love. Like let’s be love. And not everyone went to the same personal growth workshop. I went to.
Kate: Oh, I used to define what is a good friend, like very specifically, this is back in college when I was still a newb to friendships, I thought, oh, like we have to be interested in the same things. We have to come from the same background. And then that led to a lot of problems, you know, including this one friendship, actually, she might maybe listen to our podcast either way.
Kate: I mean, you know, it was like a very tumultuous situation. I really wanted to be her, friend. And even after we had like lots of ups and downs, I really tried to salvage that for a long time. And eventually my finally in my early thirties, I was like, you know, I don’t think we’re suited to being friends, it, it, it wasn’t like enough, you know, she’s not good or I’m not good.
Kate: It was just like,[00:22:00] aren’t compatible as friends, But it took me like 12 years to figure that out, you know? so anyway, but now I feel like in my late twenties, I started realizing like, having adopting a different approach to defining what constitutes a good friend. And it’s not, we have lots of interests in common.
Kate: It’s not, we have a lot of similar background it’s more, um, whether they’ll be really real with me, or I feel that I can say things to this person and not feel judged. and it doesn’t really have to do with your actual interests, you know?
Kate: And I learned this, I don’t know if she listens to our podcast, but she’s one of my really good friends. And when I first met her, I was like this girl and are never going to be friends. Like we have nothing in common. Like her personality is very different, boring, but we used to go to India, but then we start going to the same church, you know, and, and being around her, I just realized like, she is.
Kate: Warm lovely person nonjudgmental. And I really enjoy talking to her and getting to know her and that I felt that I wanted to learn from her too. Right. So this is, I think like being friends with her really, really changed a lot of my perceptions about what I wanted, what I would [00:23:00] count as a good friend. And also, you know, she was one of the first, really close female friends, that I felt like I could really trust. And it wasn’t, you know, after having dealing with that betrayal with the friend in college. so anyway, I feel like it’s changed a lot in the last, five, 10 years for me.
Susan: Okay. Wait, I want to add to my definition and then go Jeanette, but because like, you would know if you’re a good friend, if you’ve been invited to sleep over or I would be totally cool with it, but you are my good friend. If I can be super vulnerable with you. And tell you my biggest dreams and my biggest accomplishments that I’m proud of and like, be completely so transparent with you that I don’t think any of it will be used against me like I know that we’re going to celebrate each other’s successes and it’s not about like an envy game or like making someone feel bad. It’s just like, this is me a raw human with you. And we want the best for each other. I’m going to say, I want it to be easy for the most part.
Susan: Like it’s easy, like other relationships, like maybe your employer or your, family is like, it’s [00:24:00] fraught with drama and like, friendships should be like, life-giving, this should be fun. but yeah, there’s like, love the friendships where I feel like, I can tell them what I’m asking.
Susan: Proud of about myself and it’s not like this terrible humblebrag thing. it’s not like misconstrued and used against me later, you know, it’s like we support each other live and walk this path that we so desire instead of seeing it as something, full of ego.and I can do that with close friends.
Susan: How about you, Jeanette? What is the definition of relationship to you?
Jeanette: That robot
Susan: and Susan, you said earlier, you’re like, relationship equals no, sorry. I feel like I have these set of mostly women who, you know, even if I hadn’t seen them in person for a while, or even talked to them, let’s say for like a year, right. When we catch up, yeah. We could just like talk and I could just tell them about what’s been going on and I want to hear about what’s been going on with them and there’s just like that kind of rapport. And I don’t know, like an [00:25:00] understanding. so I feel like there’s this feeling that I have with certain people that we could just pick up right where we left off. And so for me, like, I have a set of friends that fall into that category. And then I have, I think, like another set of friends who, these are not completely distinct from each other, but, you know, there are more people that like I’m doing life with. Right.
Jeanette: And I think these people, , I mostly meet through a church. . and they’re just people I like to spend time with. Like, I would go take my kids with their kids somewhere or, you know, they’ll come over. We’ll, we’re kind of doing life together. and then there’s Jake, right? he’s in his , own category. . and I think this is true for a lot of married couples, like hopefully, right? that your spouse is kind of like in a special category of friend. if I have a best friend, Jake is my best friend.
Um, he knows the most about me. and, I think. He’s one of the people, if not the person who’s closest to what you’re describing, Susan, which I find this very ideal form of , love that you’re describing like a completely selfless love where you’re like, totally rooting [00:26:00] for the other person without like any hint of jealousy or thought for yourself.
maybe I’m just jaded and you know, but I don’t really know if that exists in the world, but, um, but like the closest, I think I come to that with is with Jake, because of our affection for each other, but also because like, our interests are so tied in with each other’s lives.
Jeanette: Like yeah. That his happiness affects my happiness and my happiness also affects his happiness. that’s the way I think about friendship.
Kate: I think that’s what those are. Good categorizations. I feel like if I had to kind of categorize friends as an adult, like adult friendships or friendships as an adult, they would probably fall into those two. and actually I would say that first category where, you know, you fall into the pattern and then you feel really comfortable talking to people and sharing a lot of personal things, et cetera, none of those people really live near me, you know, those friends are elsewhere. and then, you know, the people that you do life with, obviously they live near you. And I realized too that, before when I was younger, I used to think, [00:27:00] okay, if you’re like really good friends with somebody, you’re like texting them every day and like, duh, right.
Kate: But actually now it’s sort of like people that I text the most are not necessarily the first category that, that I feel so emotionally close to. they’re kind of more, the people you do life with Cause you know, it makes sense. You’re coordinating, you’re like, you’re in the same life stage with kids talking about, oh no, my kids shat in the tobacco pep or something, you know what I
Susan: Oh my God. I finally picked up arts poop.
Kate: Oh, you did. Oh, sorry. I just feel like now, you know how I feel it was discussing crows, right. Cause it’s okay. Anyway, sorry, we won’t talk about that, but it disintegrates it gets gross. So I think that the thing, that thing that I struggle with right now for me, and I don’t know if either of you struggle with it is I felt like when I lived in Beijing, I had.
Kate: Two groups were merged. I was both doing life with, and the people that I also felt just so emotionally close to, right. I was going to church with my friends and it was just like complete the whole package. And since I moved back to the U S, which has been like [00:28:00] five years, so I guess not even like recent, and especially Seattle, I just feel like I haven’t had that.
Kate: It almost feels like I kind of regressed. You know what I mean? I wonder if I’m just asking too much, right. Like, this is just in that where we are in life right now, but that’s just how things are, especially because you know, we’re so mobile people move. I dunno, but it’s been this struggle and I’ve had like a hard time letting go of like, I,
FYI. We all live in Seattle with you.
Kate: Oh my God. I just made everything else. I’m like really bad, but I mean, it’s like, and actually I do remember Susan, you told me, cause I complained to you when I first moved here, you did you, and then you were like, Hey, you got to give it at least three years. And I was like, what the fuck?
Kate: Three years?
Susan: Like, it was a weird
Kate: place, dude. Okay. So, but you are right. I’m just here to say that I finally started making like actual friends about three or so years. like after I moved here, Sorry. And then Oh my God. I just realized maybe I just shat on everybody or the two of you.
Kate: But what I mean also is that
Jeanette: we just like take a pause here because like, I [00:29:00] think when you said that it didn’t. Occurred to me, whatever credence is, his had just did not occur. My brain is like the difference between Susan and I, where she’s like, God, you know her friendship. And I’m just like, oh yeah,
Susan: yeah, yeah.
Susan: I’m always assuming that I’m terrible. And no one likes me
Kate: and now I have to, I feel compelled to like slightly moderate, moderate.
Susan: No, don’t it’s okay. You can say that how you feel about Seattle is okay.
Kate: But then I realized, like the thing is like I’m clinging to something that it was like a specific time, a specific place.
Kate: Those people are no longer in Beijing. Right? Like they’re off elsewhere. And so I feel like my own nostalgia is holding me back in a way. And then also, time burnishes thing. Right. I also had like drama and issues there, but. it’s so I don’t know a part of this is like, it feels very, like, I just don’t want to let go of something, but it may not have been like as necessarily, I mean, it was great, but it was maybe not as great as I thought.
Kate: And then also, now that I’m in a different phase, right? I’m [00:30:00] married. I have kids am I just clinging on to this sort of like Kate in her late twenties, early thirties, like single person in Beijing Maybe I’m not being realistic.
Susan: One of my therapists once said when I was, maybe I had gotten friend them to choose like, Susan, there are friendships for different reasons for different seasons. And I was like, have you been dumped? Like, do you know that talking about, but that’s, it it’s just like, there was an era and there was this moment where that person was really great or that group and it just worked and that was beautiful. And can we be in a place of like, cherishing that instead of like. The longing turns into the current resentment of that is not now,
Kate: I think also it was like the first time in my life where I had positive, like really uplifting friendships, you know, especially with other women. I mean, obviously I’m more capable of that now, but like, I think I just think of that so fondly.
Susan: can I add another category of friendship, which is people you want to be friends [00:31:00] with, but they don’t want to be friends with you. So like there’s a couple of people that I see and I’m like, I think they’re so cool. all of the things check off of why we should be friends I’ve like asked him to hang out. Like I, and it’s the worst one. They’re always like, we should totally hang out. I’m like, okay, cool.
Susan: I just like open up my calendar. I’m like, when? and then like I follow up with text messages and then there’s a point where I try to tell myself now just like, it’s three tries. Like if people have to reschedule because their dog, whatever fine. And then they’re sick. Okay. And then something, there comes a point where I’m like, you know what? It’s okay to say, no, I wish you could just tell me to my face. Maybe I actually wouldn’t react to it very well, but like, it’s very annoying to me. Like Janet, we were talking about this at one point where it’s like, we’re moms, we have less time. We have less personal time. So that time that I, that I do invest with people, like, I don’t want to, to be dicked around. I don’t want it to be games. I want it to just be like, It’s still like dating, like it’s so awkward. it’s like I’m friend dating and then I’m kind of like, I got plenty of [00:32:00] friends.
Susan: Like, I don’t know why I should just like, spend more energy with the friends. I do have, even if they don’t live around here. So then that’s like, interest into very weird territory because I’m just kind of like, okay, I guess it gave me an implicit. I should stop now accept that. But I also like am fucking annoyed when people are like, we should really hang out and then like, okay. Cause if you don’t really mean that, like don’t even say it like that’s on a principle level, gets me to a level where it was like a friend that I wanted to have, but I guess we’re not interested.
Susan: They’re not interested. Okay. Then they kind of go into a new category, which is you annoy the shit out of me because your principles don’t match mine or like, where’s your integrity on that? Well,
Jeanette: what do you want them to say to you, Susan? I don’t. I mean, I like you as a person, we might be friends, but I don’t have time for another friend or like
Susan: kind of awesome. I would respect them. I would be like, fuck. Yeah, dude, here’s $5. Buy yourself a coffee. I don’t know. Like, I’m getting to a place where I would actually like, [00:33:00] appreciate that more, but I am a coward. I want to talk because there’s sometimes people who approached me where I’m just like, I already know what baggage it comes with.
Susan: Almost like, based on what I know of them or whatever, or like, I’ve just like, I can’t take that on right now. but I don’t say to their face, we should really hang out sometime. I think that line just kills me. Like I just, yeah. I
Kate: agree with you, Susan,
Susan: you have a conversation in hangout in the time that I’ve met you wherever.
Susan: And you just don’t say that line. Like we could just be cordial and it’s cool. It’s cool.
Kate: I’ve encountered this more in Seattle than elsewhere actually being like ghosted friend ghosted. Um, and I agree, like, I don’t mind if like I have a great conversation, somebody, and then it doesn’t go anywhere as a friend, but like don’t tell me, Hey, yeah, let’s totally hang out and then just go see, I’m like, no, don’t do that to me.
the other thing, I have a problem with me personally, I have an issue and I don’t know if either of you tend to have this meeting more Susan, cause you’re such a, what did you call yourself? Bernice mountain dog. Yes. Um, so I’m not [00:34:00] really a Bernese mountain dog, but I kind of do get attached really easily sometimes.
You know? Like I’m like the one who like, Ooh, I really want to be really good friends. I sometimes have poor judgment because sometimes first or. Impressions are not really accurate. Like when you’re talking about values or how you approach life. Sometimes those don’t always come out. Right. Um, in the beginning, cause you’re more just like, oh, interests are like, oh, you went to this school too. Or, you know, but like superficial stuff. And so I found myself in the position. Diving into a friendship, like, oh, like super gung ho. And then I realized, as I find out more info, I’m like, oh, I don’t think this is going to be a particularly like emotionally healthy situation. But then it’s like awkward because I can’t, I’m like really passive. I don’t like having those conversations, you know?
Kate: Like, I guess let things drop, like, and my husband, at one point I was like, maybe you should say something. I’m like the person that
Susan: annoys me. I mean, like you do maybe.
Kate: Cause so cause my thought is like, well, I don’t want them to [00:35:00] be offended, but also like, you know, like if we just kind of stopped like hanging out as much, it’ll just be more natural. I don’t know. Like, because I don’t also don’t want to bring it up and like, Hey, I think you suck. It’s more like, I realize maybe you just, there’s a mutual in compatibility in some ways. And so like why, why bring it up as like a, I don’t know.
Susan: Because if you did the, it’s not, you it’s me thing, then they think you’re even more, not cool.
Susan: Like, like, what is this high school Kate?
Kate: But I mean, I do have that issue, you know, like it’s not always like reciprocal that we become friends, but I do have the problem with like, have diving too quickly into something that I think, oh, I think we’re going to be really good friends. And then I find out more about the person I’m like, Hmm.
Kate: Maybe not. I mean, this has happened with like daycare parents or school parents where you’re like, you’re kind of dating, you know, like you’re going to see them all the time. Um, no, they’re actually with people that I kind of just meet more organically also, it’s been tough because, you know, during COVID oh yeah.
Kate: Hard to do that. [00:36:00] Actually half the daycare parents are my friends that I introduced to the daycare. So it’s not really, that’s not really the issue. yeah. And then I think I also like with some women, I feel like I get triggered by that friendship that I had in college that was so full of betrayal and lies, I feel like.
Kate: And so that’s just like even though I don’t talk to that person anymore, I realized recently that it still triggers me, like certain people, women specifically, like their behavior really triggers me in that way. And like, yeah.
Susan: Which is hard, right.
Susan: Because it’s not actually. It’s you correct?
Kate: It’s me. And then it’s not like they’re a bad person per se, but it’s just, we are just not compatible
Susan: and it’s not working.
Kate: It’s not working, I’m the one who feels really bad. I’m sure the other person doesn’t even, it’s not like not even crossing their mind that anything is a thing, you know,
Susan: I think like with my friendships, I get like really intense, like, when I first meet them, I’m like, so like, what are you insecure about?
Susan: Like, oh, we’re just talking. And then Marvin is like, don’t do that. And I’m like, yo, they’re not down to clown. It’s [00:37:00] fine. Like we got no time to waste. And I think I really turned people off when was like so intense.
Jeanette: Yeah. I think that’s a criteria for me though, too. Like, I don’t really like people, I end up being friends with or good friends with. We get vulnerable very quickly. I tend not to really spend a lot of time with people who. Just want to be at the surface, because to me, like, that’s not that interesting. And it just feels like it’s not a good use
Susan: of my time.
Susan: That’s what TV is sport, right?
Jeanette: Yeah. It’s just boring.
Jeanette: you know, I kind of want to be, I don’t know. I don’t know what it is. I just want people to be real. Like, and so either we’re gonna get there pretty soon if we’re not, then it’s fine. You know, we don’t have to, but we’re probably not gonna spend a lot of time together.
Marvin is always like Susan you’re, you don’t have to talk about everyone’s love life or they don’t have to cry with you every time you guys hang out. we don’t have to talk about because we’ll invite people over to brunch to our house and [00:38:00] then I’ll eventually be like, so how’s your love life. And then it gets Marvin console uncomfortable, but I’m kind of like, yo people’s loves lives, whether they’re single or not is actually very important to them.
Susan: So like, why can’t we just talk about it? it’s just like no territory to him. Like, Hey, and he’s like, I don’t talk about this with my guy, friends that I’ve known for like decades. And I was like, that’s on you, man. Like if you’re not into that, but like, he just doesn’t want that out of a relationship.
Jeanette: Yeah. It kind of reminds me, so like, my mom has this group of four other ladies that she’s been friends with since my childhood. So they’ve been friends for, I don’t know, probably like 25 years. And they all have kids. Like I grew up with their kids, but I wouldn’t say like, they go into the details of like difficult things in their lives.
Jeanette: I feel like they kind of have this, like, don’t ask, don’t tell policy. Right. Which is like, unless the mom brings it up about this thing going on with whatever, like something sensitive in her life, you just don’t [00:39:00] ask about it. But I feel like these relationships are still really valuable and helpful to my mom, you know, just emotionally.
Jeanette: Right. Um, and so I think that it is like that for some people. And I think , as I get older, I do appreciate that relationship more that you don’t need to necessarily baring your soul in every conversation for that relationship to be valuable. but I do still prefer it that way.
Jeanette: Right. I still prefer the emotional kind of vulnerability and openness like that. That is an important thing to me. But I guess what I’m saying is as I get older, I can also see how you could have a long-term important relationship, even if you’re not baring your soul, like all the time.
Susan: Yeah, it was called like your post office guy, you know? I don’t know. I’m just kinda you’ve known them for a long time, but don’t actually know that much about them. That’s what I mean by that. but I wonder to net with your mom, is that a generational thing?
like shame, you don’t want to shame anybody. Right. And asking would put people in an uncomfortable position. Right,
Jeanette: right. [00:40:00] Yeah. I think they all kind of, sort of have a sense of what’s going on. Right. In each other’s lives, but they’re very like, circumspect about things that they think the other people might find sensitive or difficult.
if we’re, if it’s okay for us to switch tracks a little bit, like, I’m kind of curious, , are there types of friendships. Or relationships that you feel like you want, but you haven’t really found yet, or
Jeanette: so I can go first while you guys are thinking about it. . So I think for me, it’s like, on the Myers-Briggs okay with all the astrocyte it’s not like totally scientifically valid, blah, blah, blah. But I’m an INTJ right. And so, there’s just not that many INTJ women like statistically, there’s just, it’s not that half of it, Jays are men and half are women.
Jeanette: It’s like, there’s like far fewer proportion that are women. So one thing about my, somewhat of like a detached attitude towards friendships has to do. My childhood, et cetera, et cetera. But I think a part of it has to just also do with this feeling, like, I think a little bit what you were [00:41:00] describing. It’s like, I haven’t run into that many specifically other women that I feel like who are really like me and personality. I have lots of friends who have different personality types and that’s not necessarily a barrier, but I do think there’s this one category of relationships that I would like to populate more.
Jeanette: Like women that I feel like who share my interests and like my personality type, but who are also women, I feel like I’ve mostly found men who are also INTJ is that I also, feel like that mental click, like, oh, like we think alike, we’re interested in similar things, but , I’d rather have that with other women, but it’s just, I just feel like there’s not that many of them, , I remember I read Tina Fey’s autobiography and, she talks about how she, when she went to a writers room for the first time, she really felt like, oh, like, these are my people.
Jeanette: I guess I I have had kind of bits and pieces of that sense, but I feel like I am looking for a stronger signal there. And That I [00:42:00] would like to develop more. Right. So I don’t know listeners, if there’s INTJ women out there,
Susan: ladies, she’s looking C D of me.
Kate: That’s true. My dad is an INTJ and I remember reading about that. They’re mostly men, there are very few women who are in TJ.
Jeanette: Yeah. And it kind of makes me like, sound like a robot. Who’s a girl. yeah, so I
Jeanette: think that that’s one aspect
Jeanette: of kind of like my relationship universe that I want to fill out, but it’s been a little bit harder,
Kate: I think for me it’s like emotionally closest friends, like my tribe close, whatever, they’re all like, not married and don’t have kids. I like the only one basically, who is married to. Kid flash and half coming. and so I feel like my dream we’re going to like wave a little bond here.
Kate: Do do, do, would be to have like the friends that, you know, like my Beijing tribe, they know who they are if they’re listening to this, but like we’re in the same stage [00:43:00] of life. So I can also complain about like diaper poop in the tub with them. Um, you know, I mean, maybe I just have to wait a few years or something, but then I’ll be like the venerable person, you know? Cause they’re all like, Hey, you have to give us advice at the time. they’re not just mom friends, but they’re like friends of the heart core also. Moms, although actually, now that I think about it, I should give you guys some credit. Cause I feel like you’re probably the closest version to that because you’re also,
Susan: you’re also an answer, Kate,
Kate: jeez, wouldn’t want to arouse Susan ire
Susan: um, which pile do you want to be in?
Kate: Because I do feel like the covid has unfortunately made it harder for everybody to meet up because I do feel like we, especially through the medium of the podcast, we do talk about a lot of these things, um, that I do find harder to broach with just, you know, some people who are just mommy, friends, no offense to them at all.
But it’s also taken because I think three of us, well, we all knew each other in college, but we didn’t, we weren’t like close. Right? Not at all. We obviously [00:44:00] also, in case you haven’t figured out, like whoever’s listening, we have very different personalities. And so I feel like what’s no, um, but what’s really the interesting thing actually, as part of it.
Kate: And I used to think of this as like a, not a good thing, but I actually think it is a good thing now as an adult is that, it takes time and maybe a little more conscious effort and reflection to build friendships, as adults, like this, so it’s actually been a lesson in, a very different way, maybe from friendships that are more kind of a natural affinity or, you know, we spent a lot of time over time together kind of thing.
Susan: Yeah. for me, I would like to have more women friends that are in the arts and culture space that are gunning it the journey that I’m on, it’s a lonely place and it’s not as common to meet other people that are women of color doing it. so I’d like to meet more women doing that.
Susan: And then also there’s a part of me that’s super woo woo. Spiritual. Non-denominational not attached to any religion, but [00:45:00] like mother Gaia universe kind of vibe. And I’d like to meet more women of color in that space because that’s also been kind of lonely and, and that space is very white. they’re very loving and nice, but I’d love to just be around more women of color.
so I guess it’s centers around interests. like you were talking about Jeanette, And then also, like, I just, I told Marvin, like whenever I get down on the friends who dumped me, I like literally open up my journal and I write down everyone who I think is my good friend to remind me that I should just call them, spend time with them.
Susan: Like not fixate and feel not enough with all these people who I make it sound like there’s so many people, but I feel the, the hurt in a very deep way. And, and I, I showed him the list and he’s like, Susan, these aren’t 41 good friends. Like you don’t have 41 close, good friends. I was like, yes, I do. And then he was like, what?
Susan: And then I was like, yeah. I mean, yeah, just I could call any of them. And, he’s always kind of like, you’re delusional This is like the wrong definitions. And I’m like, this is my definition. so I’m trying to.[00:46:00] Fixate on the people that are showing up the people that, that are life giving, like why I am pining a way all the time at the approval of X, Y, Z person or whatever entity. And it’s just like, what about all the people that are right in front of my face that are just like, it’s so easy. that’s what I’d like to change with my ego is just like remembering that and choosing, the love that is already existing instead of like tapping and do like my deepest fears of like my unworthiness
Susan: 41 friends, you know who you are.
I think that the other thing I’m curious about is just, well, there’s two other topics that I feel like maybe we can have a adult friendship part two episode. Uh, one [00:47:00] is like the number of friends, right? Because Susan you’ve mentioned you have 41 good friends.
Jeanette: There was this New York times article, a few years ago, about circles of friends and how many friends you realistically can have in each circle.
Susan: You know? So I think in terms of like team good friends, right.
Jeanette: You know, it’s like, it’s far fewer than that. It’s like, you could really only have like maybe four closest people in your life. And then after that is like, maybe like 10, I’m making up these numbers, but they’re not
Susan: too different from these, let’s say a recent New York times article on this, keep going. Okay.
Jeanette: But the number is shockingly small. you just think about, you know, the time you have and the number of connections and interactions you would have to have with each of these people to keep in close touch with them.
Jeanette: Right. And the number of small, and so. I do feel like there’s this kind of FOMO aspect to it. and it’s almost like dating, right? Not that I had a very active dating life, but it’s like you, yeah. You guys know I got married at 22, so not a very active dating life, but I feel it sometimes in my [00:48:00] friendships where it’s hard to invest, like in a friendship really deeply, because you just don’t know if that person’s going to invest back.
Jeanette: Right. If you can truly, really only have like four people who are the closest to you that, and you’re really going to invest in those relationships. it’s scary to do that because you don’t know if you’ll be in their most circle for them. Right.
it’s kind of like dating, except you’re not looking for one person you’re like maybe looking for somewhere between like four to 10
Jeanette: Yeah. But without the sex. Right. So that’s, one topic that I’m kind of interested in exploring .
Jeanette: And then I think the other thing is just when you come up on conflicts In your adult friendships, like how do you deal with it? I mean, I think we’ve talked about like various forms of conflict already, like getting dumped or feeling like you just can’t be in this relationship anymore.
and then like, you know, I think in any human relationship that’s close, like you’re going to come across conflicts. So how do you deal with them and has that [00:49:00] evolved? as you’ve gotten older,
Susan: Third question. Is can you be really close if you’re heterosexual? Can you be really close friends with guys?
Kate: Oh my God. That’s the question. My mom has asked me like all from
Kate: my twenties,
Susan: because you had a lot of clothes. Yeah. But like, don’t you like secretly like wonder you’re going to date them.
Kate: Um, yeah. So I can answer that question now. Well, having had so many guys, but I think the caveat is, it really depends on what, phase of life and age and attitude you have? I think definitely in my, in college and like in my early twenties, Most of my friendships with men, boys, whatever males, I would say half, at least half of them had either a conscious or unconscious romantic interest in me. And it was really awkward for me because I was in denial for so long about this. I was like, oh, we can just be friends. Like, I would tell you some of them don’t worry, mom. Like he’s just a friend. I was dumb. I was just like willful ignorance. Because [00:50:00] like, at that age, come on, you’re like talking about like a teenage early 20 something year old hormonal guy.
I’d say that’s like most of my male friendships in my early twenties. And now I would say. Because I have evolved to have healthier, positive relationships with other women. I don’t seek that. kind of maybe affirmation or what have you, that I sought it in my early twenties with male friends,
did it change after you got married?
Kate: I think it started changing. Like actually when I met, I think it changed markedly when I started meeting, made my first like female friends that I, like could really trust and have like a really open, positive, emotional, like friendship. the guy friendships were like proxy for something that I didn’t have, but unfortunately it just ended up being very complicated.
Kate: And then I had to like passive aggressively, like exit some other’s friendships, more like passively and like runaway. Anyway, it’s just very awkward. Those were very awkward times and I was not very mature about it. So the question, okay. Is it possible? [00:51:00] Yeah, I think it’s possible, but you have to really be self-aware, you know, I was like, not aware.
Kate: I was like, oh, we’re just friends. We’re just friends. And then I was obviously leading a lot of these poor guys on, Like bunch of them actually did end up asking me out. and I only had one like open conversation with one of them because I told them, I was like, Hey, can you please let me know if you like start liking me because that would be really awkward.
Kate: Cause I’d like to just be friends with you. And actually this person did, that was the only man, friend, that I ever had friends, but he’s also very unusual and Jeanette, you know, this person. So, I mean, she’s just like, not.
Susan: You know who it is.
Kate: I could guess. Okay. Yeah. Anyway, that’s just not your typical guy, you know what I mean?
Susan: I find it really hard to be friends, like really good friends with guys, unless they have girlfriends or are married like in my phase in life now, because I, I have a tendency to crush on people really hard. And I think like what me and Marvin are working on or what he’s like, just not ever going to be.
Susan: If I find that in other people I’ll get attracted to them. And if I like, if I have a [00:52:00] weak moment or whatever, like I, I think I can easily turn on to like crushing on people. And it’s like very unhealthy. like even when I had a male therapist once after like the second session. Canceled cannot happen.
I would just read into stuff in like a crazy, crazy way. I cannot do that. So, which is unfortunate, but yeah, I like like really close, you know, like where, like you’re, you’re talking off. Not like, not like I hang out with you quarterly when I’m in your city. No, I’m talking about like a, really intense relationship that I want that I have with women, but it would be a guy. Who is also single. Nope. Not happening. You can’t it just, but that’s just me. Like I, I’m a crushing machine, like see,
Kate: but Susan, see, you’ve developed the wisdom to realize that you are like this and here is the situation that is not healthy for you. Right. Whereas I think. For me, at least in my twenties, I also like would crush really easily on guys.
Kate: And I would just lie to myself and be, be in denial. That’s like the worst thing. Right. [00:53:00] So I actually think it’s fine. I think it’s great. So you kind of know what avenues are healthy and what is not. And I feel like that’s a big part of being an adult. It’s not that you learn to not crush on, you know, single attractive males, even though you’re married.
Kate: Do you know what I mean? Cause like some of these things you can’t prevent, I don’t know some feelings of attraction. Are you like thinking somebody’s cute? You can’t just be like, no, no, no. Don’t think he’s cute. Don’t think, see, it doesn’t work like that. You know what I mean? But the more mature way is like, oh, I find this person cute and attractive.
Kate: But I think that I should not put myself in this position of temptation or like, you know, awkwardness because I love my husband and I know these are my weaknesses, you know what I mean? I think it’s a very conscious. Yeah. A will disagree with me. It depends, you know what I mean? But I just, people are people, people have feelings that they can’t control per se, but I think it’s very much mature of you.
Susan: I think this could be a really cool another episode, which is like, soulmate or very amazing supportive partner, I still think that [00:54:00] there’s a soul mate out there and I have met soulmates that are dysfunctional. Like we cannot be in a relationship together, I don’t know who created this myth in my head or what movie I watched that soulmates exist, but then it always keeps me kind of pining or like wondering, or like you are deficient in this Marvin, like, why can’t you be a hippie? You know? And it’s like, Marvin is never going to be a hippie. He’s just not, he’s never going to be like really in touch with his feelings in the way that I am with some of my girlfriends. Like, it’s just really like, this is the package, this is what it comes with. Do you accept the package or do you not, do you , expect your partner would be every single thing?
Susan: Is that unrealistic? Is someone out there who has all those things, or do you just manage around that? I’d love to talk about that and what you think about that because I go into a tailspin about it.
Let’s see that for a different episode. interesting topic, definitely. I mean, venturing even further afield than we have. I’m game, [00:55:00] but should we, should we wrap it up?
Susan: We didn’t talk about the time we almost broke up. Oh yeah.
Susan: We almost all broke up twice.
Susan: Wait twice. Yeah. Twice. Yeah, but we’re not the band still together. We’ll talk about that next time on model minority moms.
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